What exactly does it take to become a great leader?

Leadership is a buzzword that we often hear thrown around, but what does it actually mean to grow your leadership skills?

Today I’m speaking with Maggie Perotin from Stairway to Leadership. She’s a business and leadership coach who helps service-based entrepreneurs attract paying clients consistently and without overwhelm.

Discover how:

1. How taking radical responsibility for everything in her business allows for her positive outlook to really shine

2. Why creating space for your team members will help to establish trust and enduring relationships

3. How to process your emotions to avoid putting undue stress on your team

4. Routines that can help you center yourself and enable you to show up in the best way

I know that developing my own leadership skills is a continuous process that will never truly be over. When we embrace learning, we are setting the stage for this to become part of our professional development.

Learn more from Maggie here: https://stairwaytoleadership.com/

Diamond Effect Podcast: https://stairwaytoleadership.com/diamond-effect-podcast/

Learn more at https://www.adamliette.com

Discover how to work with me: https://www.adamliette.com/work-with-me

Transcript

Adam Liette
What's up welcome smooth operators, it's Friday, you know what that means. I have another amazing expert to bring onto the show. And we're gonna be diving into one of my absolute favorite topics. I love everything about leadership and learning to become a better leader. Because really, it's the act of like consciously trying to become a better leader. Like if you can say like, I want to become a better leader than just that intention takes you down a pathway of incredible, just fulfillment, incredible discovery, not only in, like what you can do as a team leader, but in what you're truly capable of inside because leadership does start from within. So if you want to become a better leader, it a lot of it really starts from what we're doing inside, and the habits we keep and the way we approach life. It's so rewarding. And so that's why I am absolutely thrilled to bring onto the show Maggie Parrington. She's from stairway to leadership.com. Maggie is a business and leadership coach who helps service based entrepreneurs attract paying clients consistently and without overwhelmed love that she has over 15 years of coaching and leadership experience in the corporate world. And in addition to holding a Facility Management Administration designation, she has a master's degree in International Relations, and is earned and get this an executive MBA at the Jack Welch Management Institute. I've read that book like 10 times the book about Jack, I love it. So thank you so much for joining me today. Maggie. How are you?

Maggie Perotin
I'm good. I'm good. Thank you. And you know what, such a great intro you did? Because something like Oh my god, we're so aligned and leadership, like 100% I don't think we have like a lot of says what we think leadership is and where it starts, and you know how it goes. So I'm happy to be here.

Adam Liette
Yeah, let's explore let's share things and I'm sure we're, I'm gonna be taking notes, the whole podcast episode, because I'm always learning. It's, that's, but that's part of being a leader, right? It's that always learning mentality and just understanding that, man, we're just we're always like, one thing away, and someone wants to know me. You know, if you can learn one thing for the day, you you've accomplished your mission for the day, but it's very early in the day. So I don't want to Well, I'm gonna keep on anyway.

Maggie Perotin
Don't rest on laurels after our interview. That's exactly.

Adam Liette
Fantastic. So you have an amazing background, I'd love to hear just a brief intro about what brought you to this, this wonderful place where you're now helping entrepreneurs.

Maggie Perotin
Yeah, so quickly. I'm originally polish. I live in Canada, in Toronto, but I was born and raised pretty much up to 27 years old in Poland. So the very first 11 years of my life, were under Communist regime. I'm probably like the last generation that remembers how it is to live under Communist regime, again, not as an adult. But as a child, there was a difference there. And then, after I finished studies in Poland, Poland was going through a lot of reforms and change because of Communist regime collapse. And when I came out of university, there was like a 20% unemployment in the country. Now I had jobs because I was educated. I lived in a big city and Swan but we were in jobs that you would think like, I will have the life of my dreams while working those ups making $300 a month. So through a conversation with a friend I found out about Canadian immigration system, it's a little bit different than in US I applied, got a permanent residency, and I emigrated and it was first flight in my life was actually moving to Canada. So as you can imagine, I've never been to North America before but you know, I really enjoyed here and through that I started my career in North America in corporate, I speak French so it's a very it's a beneficial thing in Canada. So I relatively quickly secured a entry level position in a facility management corporation because of that, and then I grew my career in facility management industry from you know, Agent answering the phones about broken toilet to a director of operations and many, many, many different things in between managing buildings. Send projects and data and people throughout most of my career, and that really led me to coaching, I realized I was super passionate about leading people and helping them grow and become leaders and become better. And when I got to the point in my corporate career are when I had a burnt out, which I guess it's that got me thinking about, well, do I really want to grow further in the corporate world? Because I'm like you, I believe we all should grow. I love growth. It's something that motivates me learning. So I never went stagnant in a position. And the more I looked at it, the more the answer was, No, I want to do more of what I'm passionate about, I want to do it my way on my terms, and that led me to starting my coaching business. In a nutshell,

Adam Liette
that's so fascinating. There's two things that stick out to me, there may it's the amount of fortitude and bravery it took to make that move at 27. Like, that's, I, I'm a big fan of like, pivot points in life and like, looking back at them, and we all have them in our own lives. And for when I hear your story, I'm like, wow, like, that's incredible to leave everything to emigrate. And then to take the first position you took and then build from that position. It's, it's such a fascinating origin story. And I love everything about it, because it says so much about the strength, the inner strength that you have. And that's, I think that's really part of the inner secret of, of how you've built this life for yourself. It's that strength that you've you've cultivated and leaned upon and just trusted. And it's amazing.

Maggie Perotin
Thank you. You know what? I think there's, you know, before the show, we chatted a little bit about my grandfather, right? Who is a veteran, or was a veteran, just like your and he had a very positive outlook on life. And this man went through, you know, how, if you think about the war, and being forced to move out from what's currently Ukraine, which used to be Poland, and then towards western Poland, that used to be Germany, like, you know, history lesson quickly? Yes. And they always look and challenges in the communist regime being, you know, pursued and whatever, always looked at the bright side, like, this man was so positive. And I always like, I take that from him. And whenever I tried to be, you know, my negative brain goes and tries to complain, I'm like, you have nothing to complain. Just change your perspective, there is nothing you have to complain. So I guess that will always help me to say like, what is the best I can take out of this situation, right, there is always positive. And when I compare my situation to people who went through so much worth and even are going through in different parts of the world, excuse me, there's really nothing you can claim about. And from there, you can find a lot of positives in whatever situation you're in.

Adam Liette
For sure, oh, man. Well, I think we found our rabbit hole right there, because we can dive down that way, we're talking to the pre interview about rabbit holes and like, you know, interviews wonderful because they have this conversational way to them. So how is it that having that positive outlook like how has that enabled you to become a better leader?

Maggie Perotin
It allowed me to, and I mean, positive, not delusional, like I'm a realist, positive, right. Like, where there was challenges. I see them on swan. But it helped, I guess, for me, even, you know, when I look at the times that were hard in, in for my team, when I was a leader, always trying to see okay, well, what can we do about this? Right? I actually talked about today about radical responsibility for my audience, right? Taking radical responsibility for everything in your business and looking even if the things that you don't have control over are looking at, like what is in my control, right? What can I learn from this? How can I turn this around and so on? So for me, that's where my positive outlook was helping because then I wasn't freaking out, right? Like I always think like a leader needs to be calm and grounded in whatever situation like imagine you're going to any er and there's an emergency going on, and the doctors and nurses are freaking up. What not go well, for anybody, right? When they'll calm and grounded. They're able to manage the situation, gather the troops, like and help everybody the best way. So as a leader, right, I really think we need to work. We should have that calm demeanor about us. Especially In front of the team, you can freak out on your own in front of your boss, whatever. But when you're leading a team in front of your team, you need to have that process and then calmly and Groundlings say okay, it's not, you know, acknowledging that it's not what we want, or there is challenges in front of us. It's not about ignoring that fact. Because our teams are intelligent people they know. So if you don't acknowledge there will be a skepticism about it, and so on. So acknowledging that but then redirecting them. Okay, what can we do about it? Let's try to figure it out together, depending on the situation, right, let's, let's do that and move forward. So I think that always helped me in leading the team, but even individually, my team members who are coming to me with different challenges, sometimes personal sometimes not, and helping them and a redirect their brain right to process whatever is happening, but also redirect to okay, what is in your control? What can you learn from it? What can you do about it?

Adam Liette
Hmm. I love that way of flipping the script, because it takes us from victim mentality into action mentality where we're now looking for the next steps as opposed to just lamenting on the reality of the situation.

Maggie Perotin
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think I've ever had a lot in victim mentality, I just don't like it. It just, you know, like, so what, like, when you're in victim mentality, nothing changes. That's, you know, really. So, in I'm not saying don't process and acknowledge challenging situation and have compassion for you do that, because that allows you to move on. But at some point, you gotta get out and kick yourself in the bud and say, Okay, what am I going to do not know?

Adam Liette
For sure. So I know one thing I've always not struggled with, but I've, like I've had a process, when we'd have negative things like, let's say, a month, then it go well, and the PnL looks like crap. And like, you have to deliver this news to the team. Like, do you have any ways that have been effective for you to, like, internalize that and process it through before you get in front of the team?

Maggie Perotin
Yeah. And so some of it is having to bench and rage to it. So very often, it was my boss, I most of the time, I had good relationship with my bosses. And I was able to do that. So go in and say, I don't like this, this is ridiculous, what the hell. And then kind of helping because that just venting, that's what I say, like venting, right? It leaves this team out and allows you to calm down. And when you calm down, you'll gain access to that executive thinking right reaction and high emotions, when emotions are high intelligence is low. So you need to just get it out. So quite often, I was able to do that with my boss, and they held that safe space for me. And I think that it's one thing of an offer leader that when you have a team that trusts you and you trust them, you need to be able to create space for each individual member, team member to do that with you. In private raid, it's not maybe the place to do in public, or in a meeting where it can affect negatively other team members. But in private, when you can process that we're human, of course, there's challenging times things you don't agree with. If you don't let it out, it will bubble and come out and the most inappropriate or the, you know, not in the in the best time, right? So I was able to do that. So that's one sometimes. And sometimes, you know, privately there with my husband, or somebody you trust and so on. So let that out. And, and then another thing really like what helps my mind is redirect. Okay, what can I do about it? What's good about it? What can we do? Because then my brain calms down, say, Okay, we have a plan, there's a way out, or there was a way to move forward. And that automatically kind of calms our brain because then it has those steps, right? Our brain likes structure, talking about operations, right? Or when you have kids, they like structure, it likes to know next steps. And if that it doesn't have it, and there's a lot of certainty, that's when it freaks out. So when you create that plan, even if it's short term, even if it's okay, those are the two next steps we can do, maybe I don't know everything, but the two next steps I can do. It calms you down, and then you just go and implement. But yeah, having somebody to vent is important.

Adam Liette
Absolutely. And that's why I talked about this repeatedly. That CEO CEO relationship is special. Yeah, and it has has to be transparent. It has to be radically, just open, it has to be in for each other. I mean, the CEO, you can be the second command, and the CEO just goes off on something. And you got to understand that when you have someone venting to you, they're not always asking you to solve it. They're just needing someone to just shut up and listen.

Maggie Perotin
Yeah, yeah. And you can do it both ways. Because my boss came to me too, because they felt they could trust me, because they felt that none of it would ever get out anywhere. And they could just event and sometimes we would brainstorm together to help them. And sometimes that's all they need it to just bend and move on. Right? And then I agree with you that SEO SEO dynamic is very important, right? And you want that built on trust, respect, and mutual recognition that yeah, we're human. And it's okay, if we talk openly with each other. Just sometimes, yeah, just sometimes to say things to people, because that allows us to process right the things that we see our cloud as we stood saying them, it allows us to process like I read this book once. And I don't remember now it was for cultures, right? So it escapes me. However, the concept there that the author presented was that anybody talking through things, even to a lamp post will feel better. So even if you talk to a wall, lamp post, just to get things out and process, it will make you feel better. It's always better with another human being. Yes,

Adam Liette
I joke that the the walls in my office have heard more F words than any other room in my house, just from me needing to vent things. But you know, there's one thing to yell at in a wall. But like that person, a person really, that's so critical, because that's, we're humans, and that's part of the human experience. This is relationships that we're cultivating.

Maggie Perotin
And especially if you are in industries that are high stress, fastbase, there's lots going on, you know, I was in a facility management, like the company I used to work for manage millions of square footage of sometimes critical environments, facilities. So if you have 30 50,000 buildings, that some of them have critical environments in them, there will some thing that happens in those buildings every day. And sometimes there are not that urgent, sometimes they're more urgent and depending on your industry rate. So there's always something whether you want it or not. So especially in those industries that are are high stress, or fast paced, and there's things happening, you need to have that ability.

Adam Liette
I love that. Well, a couple of key takeaways already is like have an outlet, be able to release that negative emotion. So you can start focusing on the here and now and next steps. And then your teams looking to you to come with a plan. Even if it's short term, it's just to get us to the next step. When we put structure and things in motion. We help calm things down and get people into action, which helps to solve the problem and just really help work through the things that we're dealing with on a regular basis. And I think it's like it gets us into like the broader topic of what leadership is and like how to actually cultivate our leadership. And I'd love to dive down that hole about ways that we can become a better leader.

Maggie Perotin
Yeah, yeah, I would tell you in a sec, it was just one thing that I want to say like, where you can also create a plan with your team so you can involve them right and say help me here but you need to have your anger or whatever it is processed, ready to calm, angry or freaking out or in despair to your team asking for that you need to process these emotions be calm and grounded, accept the situation and then ask for their help. Because, you know in in today's day and age very often we are not the experts of everything right, depending on the type of team you lead. They are an experts in something and they can come up or together you can come up with much better solutions than your own, that you are on your own. And you don't have to always put that pressure on yourself as a leader either like you have your team to help you. But you cannot put stress on them flu because you have unprocessed emotions, right? Because that's not going to help anybody. Now to go back to your question. I really believe just like you that. First of all, I really believe we're all leaders. Everybody in on this planet is a leader because the first thing or something you lead is yourself. And then sometimes you lead a family, sometimes you volunteer, sometimes you do other things, you have brothers and sisters that look up to you, right? You are a leader. And the better that what's leadership for me is really being intentional, to operate at your best to think, feel and operate at your best. And when you can do that, that pursuit for growth and being better, and you know how to intentionally do that, then you can actually lead other people because you understand how it works. So then leadership of people is really how do you say, extracting or empowering people to do their best to operate at their best towards a common goal, right, because when we have a team, there's a common goal that we lead them, but the way you lead them is through them becoming their best. And when you know how to do it with yourself, you can do it with others. So that's my definition of leadership.

Adam Liette
I love it. And, you know, I've read every bit of 50 to 100 books on leadership, and it's funny, they all kind of go back to self.

Maggie Perotin
I don't think there's any other way to really don't.

Adam Liette
It's, and self development is not, oh, I read this book, I went to this course, I went to a conference. For me, self development is daily. It's the continued pursuit of finding my equilibrium, finding my strengths and building them up. So I know I have my routines, I'd love to hear about some of the routines that you've put in place that have helped you continue to develop,

Maggie Perotin
for sure. And as you say, like it's not about just absorbing the knowledge which were taught rarely through school, right, absorb, absorb, write a test, great. Move on, it's actually implementing it because knowledge is only power when you use it, if you can't implement it, then you can have all the knowledge in the world, but it's not going to help. So for me, I have routines as well, in a team. You know, I've built it over the years. So I'm gonna say to listeners, don't get scared. It didn't happen overnight. So I'm an early riser. I actually get up very early at 430, Monday to Friday, usually to Saturday, Sunday, I let myself sleep Saturday, it depends. But But Monday to Friday, it's been like that for the past almost five years. So like, you know, in the past, I didn't do that. But, you know, slowly, and the first couple of hours are for me. So it's, you know, I do stretching, I do meditation, and then I just have development meaning if there was a skill particular expand, like at least an hour during that time to learn journal, and then kind of think about how am I going to implement that and so on. And so that's my, I love it. I will, you know, keep it forever. I really love that time kids are asleep, you know, by the time they need to get up to go to school, then I'm already grounded ready for the day. So that's one the second routine that really helps me and habit is weekly planning so I don't have a to do list anymore I used to in my corporate world is like ridiculous. So I don't have a to do list. I don't decide the day off what I'm going to do. I decide a week ahead of time. And it's all aligned with my strategic plan for my business and my priorities. I lead myself focus on three strategic priorities and then align my actions with them. And then I decide Yeah, a week ahead I plan Yes, I sometimes need that just readjustment but it's actually so much easier when I know what I have planned than when I don't and if I need to look at the day, okay, this is what I have going today. That's fine, but that's another huge huge, you know, habit that is helpful. And I guess the third one there's like little ones that I'm probably forgetting is journaling. And I have kind of three ways that are journals one is I call it mindset maintenance. So I come from like construction management industry. And the concept is you know, if you maintain a car or a piece of equipment on a regular basis, you look into it then it doesn't break us off and it operates at high level on swan. So I believe that about mine because I've tested it on me and my clients it works. So when you everyday do something, it will help you to stay at a higher level of thinking or more grounded energy for longer, and even if you get into a rat hole a little bit, it's faster, you get out faster, and it's not as bad. So for me, you know, it looks a little bit like practicing gratitude or thinking about things you're proud of yourself and so on. So those are like little things. It's literally like five to 10 minutes a day. And then the the other part of journaling is really diving and super thinking, accessing your executive brain and Solutioning certain problems or working on certain things for projects that I work, or how can I help my clients, veterans one, spending quiet time now I call it see your time, spending time in a way to really access your super thinking CO and create solutions and so on. I also teach that to my clients.

Adam Liette
I love it so much. Yes, I'm an early riser, too. I beat you by a little bit. I'm at four. I'm a 4am. All right.

Maggie Perotin
You go i for it sounded like when I was started thinking it just sounded way too bad. I was like, I can do it within 430s I get up I will have an app.

Adam Liette
Well, my kids wake up at six. So I need four hours in

Maggie Perotin
Yeah, my kids wake up at seven. So you know.

Adam Liette
I love where you ended, just talking about the absolute superpower that sitting in silence is I've found so much strength in silence. And revelations. One of my business coaches taught me to when I'm doing quarterly planning, I begin it with four hours of silence, absolute silence. And it's amazing what happens when you do that you you access these layers of your subconscious. I am not the expert to talk about this. I'm just the student so but I know it works incredibly well for me, and you have some interesting conversations with yourself after a couple of hours of complete silence. It's pretty amazing. But it isn't indeed, it's a superpower when you can access that level. It's amazing.

Maggie Perotin
You too. And you know, I'm not a neuroscientist and expert. But I've read a lot about how our brain functions and even like through coaching tools and stuff. And the thing is that when you are in today today, going from one task to another, you are in operational mode, right? So you're into operations and so on. And our brain cannot switch easily from that into strategic thinking and strategic thinking that's what it is you're accessing creative brain like solutioning, and so on. And it needs space, creativity, need space and time for the brain has that space, right? No distractions, no nothing. In sometimes like we've having some good questions, either asking yourself or as a coach, like I asked my clients with questions, right? And sitting with those questions. Just it gives you access to wisdom, you really didn't know your heart. And that's the power of it. Right. That's how you like become I call it being a high performer thinking at your best but that's what it is right? Accessing things that we didn't know we had because you know, I don't remember the study by SoCo was 5% we use our brain 5%. So even if you could increase it by three, yeah. How much would it be? Right? How much wisdom how much better and the results better results you get just by that?

Adam Liette
It feels so counterintuitive. Where? How do you access that and still be well do nothing? What do you mean? Like literally just doing nothing? Let your brain do what it does stop doing. And we have these amazing machines that have been created for us. And they'll they'll do what they do if we get out of their way. Right?

Maggie Perotin
Yeah, it's the most powerful computer in the world, right? We don't have computers more powerful than our brain can create them. Yeah.

Adam Liette
I love it. So we talked about you hit on high performance and all that and I'm always intrigued by the idea that us as leaders, like I think the best thing that we can possibly do to impact the growth of our company is to install a leadership and high performance culture within our team and I'd love to hear ways that we can do that for the not only the strategic level but then like tactical application to creating that culture in our in our teams.

Maggie Perotin
Hi I'm so tactically Of course there's a lot of things and I'm probably will miss a lot of them. So don't take it as an exclusive. But just as soon as Are both? Well, the first thing that comes to mind is really, as you have a team play to their strengths, right, so play to what they love doing what they're good at, and use it as them for help. Ask them questions, people love to help people love to contribute, because they find purpose in it, when you play to their strengths, and then use that, as a team, you become a richer, highly functioning, highly operate, that's fine. But in order to do that, you also need to get to know so like another thing is create a space and we talked about it right for your team members to be feel safe, and not be afraid of retribution. When they speak up, when they see challenges who see problems through things that don't work for them, whether they're don't work for the entire team, or just for them, it doesn't matter, right? Like, allow them to come to you and talk to you because you will become so much more wiser through that and you will be able to see what the risk to improve in the team operation or not. Okay, sometimes the team member can come with a with a suggestion or an idea that won't work, and that's okay. But when you listen to it, think through it, and then tell them why this won't work and so on. They're gonna be respectful over that's not a problem, right? But, but bring that create that environment where suggestions and ideas for innovation are more important than pretending that everything is okay, or that, you know, that, Oh, I'm becoming, I don't know, I bring bad news to the boys, right? Bring something right? No, just anything. Now it needs to be managed, to an extent but you know, good ideas, right? In this period of growing the team growing the business and so on. Even if they they their opposite to what we're doing now, it doesn't matter. So that another thing is in depends on your team, right? Depends on the team, but empower them with good operational structure, and good flow of information communication. So there are teams depending who need processes, right? Every team needs processes. But if you're a creative team, or you have a lot of independent, you know, depending on whether your team is entry level, or whether they're hire managers since one right that structure is different, but without structure without certain processes, people get lost in the chaos has created and I'm sure I'm you know, resonate with it. So when people will know what's expected of them, the main way to do it, and so on. And then you just the flexibility for exceptions or different situations or innovation, then that empowers them to actually use their brain and energy for innovation and not like trying to figure out what am I doing today? Right, right. So then that communication with the team has to be smooth the channel of communication, keeping everybody on the same? What do you say like the same? I'm the same page. That's right, keeping everybody on the same page and and letting them know that, you know, if they follow the process or whatever, they're good, right? Having their back making sure that they feel you have their back, I suppose, right? That if they made a judgment call, but they follow the process or whatever, that maybe didn't turn out, okay. It's okay. It's not going to cause them a job. Right? Right. The judge made the judgment call, because then you empower the team to think for themselves. And I'll come to you with every little thing. Right? Right. So definitely that like good clear communication, letting them have their judgment calls, having some processes that create structure for creativity, for high performance for things. That's, I think, like,

Adam Liette
it's just from my own experience, like if you're hearing this thing, and like, gosh, this seems like a lot of work well, but the thing is, like all this structure that you're creating for your team is also no structure for yourself as a leader as well. So if you structure this, you can actually manage your team in one to two hours a day, because it's now structured because you have a flow to it a cadence or rhythm or routine. So it actually no more work upfront to install the structures means less work on the back end, but better results. So when when

Maggie Perotin
Yes, well, I will tell you like the story from my early days as a manager, I was hired to accept a team. So it's I was actually the story was my former manager who interacted with the team that I became manager later called me up one day, and I was in a different position, I wasn't even looking for a position within the same camera company. But she called me up and said, Mickey, like, the manager, the seventh manager that year are left they need to you need to go, I'm tired of dealing with them. My team is tired like they need you can, you know, think about applying, so I was thinking, why not? Great opportunity. I applied. And it was a dysfunctional team. But it wasn't in a way their fault. You know, when you have, again, seven managers in a year and no processes, you don't know what's going on. It's chaos. Right? Yeah. And I say like, when they were understaffed, and so on, within a year, maybe a year and a half, we saved the company, quarter million dollars, and the team became super highly performing. And because of that, because it was a core team, that 200 of other people depended on her, the company was positioned to make even more money because of it. And it didn't really require as much work because when you put there think about how much time and effort it takes to deal with chaos, and the low performing team, how much stress it creates. So why not put that effort and less stress into building up a high performing team with structure where the team members know what's expected of them, where they know, you know, how they can succeed? What makes them successful, Antoine, the communication is glad there's some processes, and they feel amazing. And they stay because they're like, Hey, I'm contributing it making a difference, I can see that. And then you know, you will create opportunities for them and yourself. And you will save time. No, do you have stuff that's not needed to me? Right?

Adam Liette
Absolutely. Yeah. Oh, man, I love that you're speaking my language. And it's funny, you know, we talked about creating a safe space. And that phrase has gotten like this negative implication with, you know, the culture of today. But I gotta tell you, I am a straight up alpha male, like, I'm, that's who I am. It's who always be it's part of my, my programming. But I was never more proud than one of my team members said, Dude, you create a safe space for me where I can really thrive. And I saw the results of what it did for him on the team, what it did for the whole team to be able to come together and just grow in exponential fashion. Like if that if that phrase gives you Ooh, that's a negative phrase, change it to whatever you got it, you got to change it to. But it has the same implications. You're providing that place for people to express themselves and be vulnerable, and be honest and forthright.

Maggie Perotin
Yeah, and it doesn't mean and you're right, like being straightforward and candid, or however you want to call it has nothing to do with creating a safe space. Actually, it does create a safe space, because the word doesn't create a safe space, you're not telling your team members, when they have opportunities for growth or whatever, and then going behind their back and either demoting them or whatever, like bringing surprises out of nowhere, right? Or saying one thing in a public meeting and saying something on a one to one, like, it's just, it's okay to be candid, in a respectful manner, because at least it's straight, you're not watering down the message. And if that's the way you are, that's okay, it's being respectful while you do that, not putting people down. Right and at the same time making them feel really for me, it's Dave is fair, if you come to me and tell me what you think, and bringing with the best intentions, they paid, this doesn't work in this and my job is to look at my answer. Okay, let's see, how can I you know, how can I improve it right? Because it benefits us all. Or if you come to me and you know you you have some challenges going on, whether their personal, it's okay. I can listen to it. It doesn't mean again, it's not about allowing people hating themselves forever because that's not what coaches do. That's not what parents do. You don't let your child whine for ages over something, but to listen to them, hear them out and then tell them if they need to hear something or tell them how is it going to be whether they like it or not. Right so leader sometimes really To deliver the messages that not everybody will like, and that's okay. But it can be done in a respectful and safe space. And if people choose not to like it, then that's their choice. Right?

Adam Liette
Yeah. I love that flip of the script. It's, it's about being fair. Yeah. And yeah. Like we are culturally. And we're, we're programmed to want fairness. I mean, that's part of the human experience. And if you can cultivate that, man, I know you've seen it as well, like the results that has for your team is, it's amazing to watch what happens.

Maggie Perotin
It's amazing. It's amazing to see, I believe everybody is capable of things. Right. Not everybody is great at everything. That's how you want to play to people's strengths. But when you play to people's strengths, he can just amaze you, how I how good they can be? And how can they how much they can contribute? Whoever made. It's just you just need to let them empower them create a space for them to do that.

Adam Liette
Absolutely. Wow. I love that so much. So if someone comes to you, and then everything's a mess, like, I don't know what all this sounds really good and pie in the sky, Maggie, and I want to get there eventually. What's the first step any of us can take when we want to go down this path of creating a company with these kinds of structures?

Maggie Perotin
Look at yourself first, and ask yourself a tough question. How am I creating this? What's my role in this? I know that it can be, and maybe it's an unintentional, and very often it's unintentional. But even if it's unintentional, doesn't mean we don't create it. And we need to get to the root cause. Right? So if it's unintentional, that's okay. But that's why, you know, just like you, Adam and I were coaches who can bring that intention or awareness to our clients, because they don't see like, as human beings, we all have a blind spots, I have them, you have them. Everybody has that Marine, and especially with things that are subconscious with certain habits, which and ways of communication the way we are, we're just because it's just part of who we are. So we don't see certain things. Right. Right. So having that somebody a little bit, like, show a mirror to you, but like in a gentle, they wait to see here, but maybe that's what's creating, right? That but if you don't have that, or you don't want that you can look at yourself, and if you sit with it your brain or show you, how am I contributing or creating it. And that's without blaming yourself for feeling shame on the shame and Swan, but just objectively to say, okay, and stored there. Right? Yeah, you can always ask your team. That's also. Right. That's why there's a lot of like, emotions that you need to learn how to process because it might not be comfortable. But you could and there's tools to do it. You can do like 360, or whatever, you can do it anonymously, right? If you don't want to know like, I'm sure that HR manager, whatever, they can help you arrange for it, but that's a great tool as well.

Adam Liette
Cuz goodness,

Maggie Perotin
it's not about like one person saying something. But if you have a reoccurring theme, a few people saying the same thing. That's probably true. Right? Yeah. A lot of thing. You never know, right? Like, but if a few people are seeing the same thing and seeing the same thing, that's probably true and explore how is that true? And how can you improve it? I would start there.

Adam Liette
I love that so much, not just because it works. I know it works. I've done that. But what it actually does to you in your brain is you have to take responsibility. Yeah, this is one thing like we avoid at all cost, much to our detriment is taking responsibility for our situations. And it's tough, it's tough,

Maggie Perotin
it's tough, but that's the only way that's the only way to get better and really ADEC when I work with my clients who are you know, small business owners so when that's the only way to grow your business, if you blame everything and everybody in the economy and then Swan then you become enslaved to the economy to this to that or so you can create your own economy, you can create your own things and be your business results can be independent, to an extent to date. Other things when you take that radical responsibility.

Adam Liette
Oh, I worked with a coach once who it was part of the exercise was like everything that happened in your day. How were you responsible for that? So if if you were stuck in traffic, okay, great. Was that someone else's fault or did you have a responsibility in that?

Maggie Perotin
You could have checked you could have left earlier. You could have thought oh, you know, I live in Toronto traffic is normal. way, right? On Google, right? And now it's so easy. Google tells us everything pretty much

Adam Liette
just this crazy flip of the script of taking 100% responsibility for all of our circumstances. And when you do that, you start to see how you could behave differently, how you can make different decisions. And that leads us down this wonderful path. Oh, yes. Love it. Love it. Love it, Maggie, this has been absolutely phenomenal. before we, before we jump here, do you have any final thoughts for the listeners on what they can really do to become better leaders and grow their teams?

Maggie Perotin
I guess the final wisdom is just embrace that growth and embrace taking responsibility. And yes, it can feel uncomfortable in the beginning, but that's okay. It's just the muscle or the processing emotions and allowing that discomfort. It's just a skill, it's a muscle you can grow. And when you grow it, it will actually become easier. And it's not as not as uncomfortable to grow that result. So just say, try it out. At least if you're like, if you're already trying it, just punch yourself in the bag. Amazing. Keep going. If you haven't just give it a try and see what happens.

Adam Liette
Awesome, so many actionable steps in this interview, I'm gonna have to listen to it a couple more times, it's a bullet point them out because this has been just packed with stuff you can start doing immediately. Where can the listeners find out more about you and how to work with you, Maggie?

Maggie Perotin
So the best way to find me I guess her two places or to my website, stairway to leadership.com has information, my contact and all that I have a podcast. It's called Diamond effect. So you can listen to that just to get to know me more in terms of what I'm coaching, what I'm all about and so on. And then, you know, you can connect with me on social media. I'm on LinkedIn, Instagram, like the basic ones. So yeah,

Adam Liette
fantastic. Well, we'll have links to everything in the show notes. So listeners, just click that little more button. And you'll see the links right there. Maggie has been an absolute pleasure. I'm so happy that we found each other in the universe aligned us and we're able to have this great discussion and I look forward to staying in touch and just growing together. It's got it. Yeah.

Maggie Perotin
Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.