How can we collaborate in our conversations?

Today I’m joined by Peter Anthony, author of Collabradabra, to discuss simple ways that you can better build relationships and have deep conversations with everyone around you.

I’m really encouraged by this interview and see how it can improve networking, sales, and team communication through the process.

Enjoy more meaningful conversations with everyone in your life today!

Buy Peter’s book here: https://www.amazon.com/Collabradabra-Peter-J-Anthony/dp/064681074X

Learn more at https://www.adamliette.com

Discover how to work with me: https://www.adamliette.com/work-with-me

Transcript

Adam Liette
Hey, guys, hey, can you imagine what it'd be like to have collaboration? come easy, natural, and even fun? Dude, I know what you're thinking like, Adam, what are you talking about? That is what we're going to be talking about. In this episode of smooth operator, I have a very awesome guest with me. You know, it's Friday. And Adam always brings the best guests on Friday, and I am not disappointing. This week. I have Mr. Peter Anthony. With me. He's the author of collaborative Jabra, which is all about simple steps that we can use to have more collaborative conversations, work more with our partners, our teams, all these awesome things that we can do to really harness the power of collaboration. So I can't wait to get on this episode. And let me bring in Peter right now. And we're gonna jump start here. Hey, thanks for joining me, Peter. How are you doing this evening?

Peter Anthony
Good. Adam. Hello, listeners from Sydney, Australia. How are you today?

Adam Liette
Fantastic theater. Yeah, it's my second guest from Australia, I got a good track record going now with the Aziz. And we always, we always like to talk to our friends down under. So of course, it's evening here morning there. That's what happens when we're working transnationally. But what I love about this is that this is a walking talking example, folks of how collaborative things can be now in the year 2022, we got through the weirdness of the last two years of people being crazy run around like their heads are on fire. And now we have all these wonderful collaborative tools on how to actually work together. But we're missing some things. And that's what Peter is here to help talk about is these ways we can have these conversations. So Peter, if you'd like, I'd love to know a little bit more about your backstory, like how you came to this wonderful place and, and the things that you're doing now.

Peter Anthony
Yeah, it hasn't been hasn't been easy. It wasn't one of those mornings, where I just woke up and thought, wow, here's how to have a collaborative conversation. It was, it wasn't that simple. I wish it was been running workshops in the influencing spec for about 20 years, in about 12 different countries. And for me, it was all about a variation of selling. But what I found was that the more I looked at selling the less at work, because what I found and what salespeople find is that when when you're selling, you're the person in a buyers perspective, and they go they get cynical, they distance themselves from you in terms of relationship. And they're going to think I'm going to put downward pressure on price. Brian, when this buyer seller battle. So clearly, a collaborative approach was one that we were looking for, and they were working in collaborative cultures and organizations, a lot of work in the wisdom of teams. And there wasn't anything really in that in that conversation space. So I started looking at that much more closely. I went back to uni, the Master's in communication, studying collaboration, and through the workshops and clients I was a developed over a period of years, these six steps or what I call the six moments that matter in a collaborative conversation, because you think there's, you get this feeling when you're almost like playing a game, there's there's moments when things are required, whether you're playing tennis or playing football, the great players that are people that recognize moments and know how to react to them. And if you're having a collaborative conversation, it's very much about saying, well, here's here's the moment that requires this step. And I found there was a certain sequence that worked well to assess just me the the participants and people I work with find it works too. So it's been 20 years. Wow. Ah, this place

Adam Liette
that's fender Oh, I can't wait to dive in on this because like I hear what you're saying where we've been conditioned to believe that like it's a variation on a sales call some kind of like a lot of partnership calls that we would do when trying to expand our networking. And now I can see it exactly like you're you're you're putting someone in a buyers perspective. We all know what happens when we're selling. You know, if you've done sales, you can tell immediately when someone puts their protectors up. You can feel it if you're on a sales call and if you cannot See, if you look on your like if you heat map a sales page, guys, which if you haven't done that heat map a sales page, that's interesting, because you can see where the where the get the protectors go up on a sales page because where the traffic stops. So it's, it's a really interesting philosophy and get let's dive into this. I mean, like what are some of the ways that we can change the way we're approaching conversation to really, I want to say, like leverage this power. But let's frame it a different way, because it's all about the win win win. So how can we better equip ourselves to have better conversations?

Peter Anthony
Yeah, yeah, I think that's a, that's an awesome point. Because it does start, it starts within start thinking about steps. And I've got an intention to collaborate, which is, which is key. And I'm communicating that to the person I'm talking to any Hey, Joe, I'm really keen on making this a collaborative conversation on a collaborative relationship and be very upfront about an issue attempting to achieve and rather than in a selling relationship where say, the seller wins, and the buyer loses, or the buyer doesn't win as much as the seller does. When you collaborate properly together, you're both better off. So there's an intention to collaborate, we start with, there's also an intention to be authentic and genuine, rather than fake. And we borrow on some of the work of people like Brene Brown here, when we talk about that power of authenticity. And she talks about authenticity as taking care of story and who you are with your whole heart, which means you build a better relationship, a more honest relationship. And there's also the third intention there before you actually start the conversation is the intention to be optimistic because we know through even the early research that people like Martin Seligman, that that optimists are more influential, and a conversation with somebody, you're looking at creating something better than was there before. So having an optimistic frame, and all the good research suggests that optimists are more influential, because most of us would like to create something better together and enjoy the process of doing that. So we start with those intentions, we start with the collaborative intention, it's deliberate, very honest about that. We're authentic and as genuine as we can be, which builds a better relationship. And we're going to optimistic frame unrealistic to stop the mistake and think, hey, we, you and I can do some great things together. Let's, let's do that together, build the relationship and enjoy the process.

Adam Liette
Oh, fantastic. I mean, it's so it starts before you even start. It's it's the framing you're bringing into the conversation, because you're coming into it with these three pillars of intention, authenticity and optimism.

Peter Anthony
Yeah, exactly. So you've got that you've got that intent. And as we all know, in tears are contagious. If that's your intention, you can be deliberate and, and say, look, let's collaborate, but people will feel it coming off, they'll feel as if you are genuinely interested in understanding what they're looking for from the relationship. And maybe it's not, maybe, maybe not every conversation, you can create something better and different together. But just having that intense in the conversation is, is beneficial in its own right.

Adam Liette
And for the sake of Converse, of process, like we get onto these calls through some kind of outreach, like we don't just find ourselves on these phone calls where we're either cold mailing someone are leveraging social networks to try to get in front of them. So like, these are your, your guy, and I'm saying is like this is my new guiding path. To get in front of people to capture their intention is to lead with these three and allow those three principles to frame my messaging in that initial Hey, look at me, thing that we're doing when we're trying to network, right?

Peter Anthony
Exactly. And I've got to I've got a strong belief which has been proved true again, and again and again, that full for everyone that is selling something, whether it's a product or service, there are buyers looking for you. So it's almost like a sorting process. You're they're looking for you as much as you're looking for them. It's a matter of you finding each other it's almost like a dating game. It's like you're looking to find each other and develop that relationship together rather than trying to trick somebody or find someone that's not really a prospect or a customer and trick them in from your doesn't It doesn't work that way. particularly not long term. And if you get famous for being a great person to work with a great person, whatever line of business you may be in with anything from, from dry cleaning through to carpet cleaning, whatever this is, might be, you'll get famous and that's your brand. That's your individual personal brand and of your brand is hey, you know, she he is awesome to collaborate with. Because the best salespeople for you or your customers, right? Ray, you're believable. And if you leave them happy and think I love this guy atomies collaborating so well, we're going to run a great outcome together, you should talk to him. You've got you've got a Salesforce that's bigger than anyone you can with all these great customers that are that are building your brand talking to their friend.

Adam Liette
Yeah. Oh, for sure. Fantastic. Okay, I knew I was gonna enjoy this conversation and is not disappointing. Peter. So we get into the conversation. I know from here, you have six steps that you that you use. And so how do we walk through this?

Peter Anthony
Sure, let's let's talk about the six I actually call them, I call them six moments just to be to be different. A little different, a little bit of pistachio on the ice cream, because they get better actually. Yeah, this experiments that matter. And you think well, there's six moments that matter in each collaborative conversation. And the first one is, is, is setting a goal which happens happens before the conversation takes place. So you're thinking, I'm having this conversation, and I'm going to I'm looking towards changing something about what this person is thinking, what they're doing, or how they're feeling something's gonna change as a result of a conversation with me, I could be changing how they're thinking like about thinking about me, my company, my product. So changing that thinking, educate them, if you like, right could be changing what they're doing or working with a competitor. And they're not aware of what I can offer them yet. So it could be changing what they're doing. Or it could be changing how they're feeling, they could be feeling scared, or disengaged, or to feel more comfortable or confident with me. Because once I set that goal, or it could be a combination of any of them. That's gonna give the conversation its context. Because I've got a, if I want to make someone feel more comfortable with me in the conversation, I might have a different sort of conversation than if I'm teaching them something, Republika change their behavior, I might use different tools and have a different approach to the conversations that's also starts triggering the power of intention. Because once I've got that intention, very clear, in my mind, I'm much more likely to achieve that than I am if I don't have that intention. And when I asked clients in workshops, I said, Look, how many of the conversations that you have achieve an outcome that you're looking for this? So probably about half? thinking, Well, half? The if, and that's generally, because most people just start talking about something, and hope and pray that they'll arrive at an outcome. Now praying is great, right? Like pray. But I don't want to pray in every conversation I make that somehow magically, the person I'm talking to is going to pick up on the outcome I'm after and give it to me when I don't know what it is. That's That's step number one that happens before the conversation starts.

Adam Liette
I see. You're setting the goal is kind of being set. Even before you connect, it's we're coming into this conversation and here's what I want to accomplish. So your, your, your pre loading it, and yeah,

Peter Anthony
exactly. If and even for personal conversations. I mean, I go and visit most Saturday mornings. And I just think before I see because it just you just heard I catching up. And I have to make a cup of tea and the way that she likes to made an apartment the special way. I just think, What's my goal here I think what my goal is to make her feel as treasured as I possibly can. And as time got with her, because I just read her her company, I treasure what she's done for me. So I think how can I? How can vision and then the whole conversation changes and the whole relationship changes because I've got that as my intention otherwise, by this catching up with Manuel, really? I'm just catching up with her. Um, you know, she should be so grateful that I'm embracing her with my presence. Well, maybe not. It's the same. It's the same with customers. And same with customers think okay, it's give them what value can I deliver to the viewer? But what's the goal? That's the first piece. The second moment that matters is that obviously when you first connect, you want to build relationship and rapport. There's been a ton written on rapport relationship. Yeah. It's, it's, it's all really about having as we as we know to, to match their style, match their tone match where they are, meet them where they are. And what we find is that when we're willing and able to adjust our style to suit there's that Probably more willing and able to adjust their thinking to sit out. That's the initial part. And that might be a couple of seconds. Or it might be the entire meeting. Some folks like a lot of personal conversation and chitchat about football and families and the, the, the RV, for example, the conversation starts, or they want to get straight to business, which is fine, too, you're you're being led by them in terms of that report piece. And that that continues with the conversation. That's the moment to moment three is somewhere in that report part. And this might be a few seconds in for super busy people, it might be 20 minutes into people that are much more chatty and friendly, and affable, you need to take the lead, the conversation needs some structure. And this is where you suggest to the person what you regard as a useful structure for the conversation. And it's, it took four parts, and this can be four sentences. And the shorter this is the better. And that is useful for the conversation to take place, like the motivator for the conversation from both your perspectives. The second is what outcome you're recommending will be useful for both of you in the conversation to the why there's the what is how you recommend the conversation can progress. And then finally, it's the so what so what's gonna happen after this conversation so that the conversation becomes part of the relationship? And when you think about this, the quality of your relationships is the quality of your conversations. Right? Right, right, whether that's a marriage, whether that's a parent, whether it's a friend, whether it's a business relationship. Great conversations are markers of have great relationships. And what you're doing is you're deliberately giving it some structure and giving it the next step. Like you're not, you're not telling them it's just you're suggesting you're suggesting this to them, and you're very happy at this moment, this the third moment of the conversation to get their input. And and if they've got their fingerprints on it. Fantastic. Because you want their fingerprints all over it. If you want them to adjust it, it's supposed to be ours, not mine. Right, right. This is our conversation. This is but my compensation. It's It's us. It's a very something so and we can move those things. As long as you've got a wire what a house. And so what it doesn't really matter, actually would be better if then it's more collaborative, right. Right, which is the heart. If I walk in and start dictating to people, this is what the session is going to be about. That's hardly collaborative.

Adam Liette
Yeah. I want it to be told what to do. I talked to my wife, what are you talking about? No, I'm kidding. Honey, if you're listening, I'm kidding. Kidding.

Peter Anthony
I've got that I've got I've got a wife and three daughters. So I get a lot of I get it in, like, Yes, I get a lot of advice. I get a lot of advice, having a wife and three teenage daughters advice on what to wear, where to go, what to say what to watch. Recommended highly

Adam Liette
not I'm not ready for those teenage daughters yet Peter, stop. Cut off the conversation. This was not in the intention. Okay.

Peter Anthony
Okay, so So that's the third moment. And you could just be only now, a minute in or two minutes into the conversation. Right? Now, it might be longer, because that report part might take a bit longer because some, some folks will talk a bit longer chat a bit more stone, it's going to depend. So you've done done the leading part, you've got some structure around the conversation. And then you've got moment number four, which is, which is understanding how they're thinking now. And this is likely to be the majority of the conversation. And what I suggest to your listeners is that when you're when you're setting up that leading part or setting up the meeting, and you say, this is how I suggest that conversation takes place, I'd suggest step number one is I'd like to take some time to understand how you're thinking about this is step one. To take a leaf out of Stephen Covey when he said seek first to understand before seeking to be understood. So you're understanding them because as we influence somebody until you understand how they're thinking already you don't know what where the target is. Yeah, you don't know what you're aiming at. That's why I don't like the sales pitch because think like I don't know where the battery is. So I can't repeat to a battery. I don't know where he is. Right we're using the field for like a pitch the border we're just walking in with a pitch Well, maybe not. Maybe not. Yeah, maybe.

Adam Liette
And it's so I think it's so refreshing where, like, if you've been in the online space for more than about 10 minutes, you've been pitched to buy a million cold emails, that they didn't even take the time to understand who you are. And instead, we're outright saying like, brother, I want to understand, like, I want to know you. And like, taking that genuine interest in people, whether it be a team member, a potential collaborator, partner, employer, whatever, it doesn't matter, when we take that initial step forward to say, I want to know you. Like, what is it that makes people It makes them feel like genuinely appreciated, and that's and but it's, it is genuine. And that's and that's the point is, none of this is fluff. None of this is doing it because of this intention of setting up the sail down the road. It's this very clear, intentional way of communicating and showing attention. It's i I'm taking notes. If you're not taking notes, and you're listening to this posit, go grab some notes, come back, then you can listen to the rest. Okay. But anyway,

Peter Anthony
we're important. Okay, that it's true. I get spammed as I'm sure as I'm sure you do. You do to us folks are working the numbers, they think, okay, if I, if I email 1000 people, I might get a 1% response rate and, but they're pissing off the other people that 1000 Rather than plus, the other thing, from the listeners perspective is, the more they do this, the better you get at it, it's like a craft. Yeah, and each person's subtly different. And it's what I find really interesting is unreal, how they think about things. So when I get to moment, number four, I'm thinking, Okay, I want to understand how she's thinking about this. And what's really interesting is how she's thinking about this, because she may not have stopped for quite a while thought, How am I thinking about this? Because not many of us walk around thinking, here's all my decision making criteria in my head. And up space, right? It's, it doesn't work that way, at all. It's quite subconscious. And it could be decisions I made to or five years ago, we've always bought this brand or always done business with them. They bought, maybe it's time to reconsider that. Let's say you think, what do I understand how they think you think and what we, what we talk about, is we talk about decision making values we sell, like every every decision leads need a way of making some decisions. And rather than teaching, like questioning techniques, which, like in the old days, like Teach open and closed questions, well, you ask a closed question to someone who's really super expressive about go and look at a 10? In an answer. Yeah. If you say, Do you like black and white, black or white? What about gray and they'll go off for 20 minutes? Or if you ask an open question to someone who's really introverted, you might get a really closed answer. Yeah, how was your day? Good. You know, so we're looking here, you want to understand what is tirar, you want to know what order they're in most important, second, most important, third, most important. You want to know what each of the mean to I find this? And three and four are important. Like what do they mean? Like if if Adam says, like he, he really is really interested in something cost effective. Now, I'm curious as to what is cost effective means. Because it might be something different than what the cost effective is, it's very likely, it's gonna be different. So even though it cost effective, I'm curious, because I'm like, I like to learn different perspectives on cost effectiveness. And the final one I love is, I really like to understand the final part of this understanding is to work out what they're trying to avoid. Because what we know about decisions is people a combination towards what they want, and then moving away from what they don't want, and what they don't want us obviously, risk and cost and all those good things. So you want to understand what they want to avoid. So and we've got a good relationship, they'll tell you because very few people ask this question. Because salespeople are scared. They're taught to sell sizzle, not steak, sell benefits, okay? Just saw benefits. But real people have concerns as well as desires, right? They're both right. Concerned about most of the decision like this. What do you want to avoid the most? What are you most concerned about what would be and I want to have that conversation with you. I want to know what you don't want so that I can position In what I'm doing, what make sure I don't give you what you don't want. And it when you had that conversation, it's one of those things where people just change, but they are, well, this this, this guy's real, he actually is really concerned about how I'm making it. So then you've got when you ask those left for questions that sort of, and that might take a meeting or by a conversation by itself in hours. Yeah. It might take quite a while. But it's

Adam Liette
depending depending on how extroverted the person is, you could be on for about an hour and a half for the first.

Peter Anthony
You could be happy. And this is really great. Can we meet again on Thursday just to dig into this a bit in a bit more depth? Or can we have zoom recall on digging a bit because they may not know? Or it could be somebody else's? Like, you know, I can be talking to Jane and Jane says, You know what, these are my criteria, but but my boss, Jim, he's got different criteria. And Tyler's gonna think about, okay, well, how am I going to juggle those two together? So I get I get those criteria down? Well, the understanding part, which is the moment number four, and then I need to say, well, given an understanding, I need to make a recommendation about how we can agree or not, maybe we can't agree, maybe what you're suggesting, are way off track. Maybe. And that's okay, that's okay. We've had a great conversation, I've understood how you're thinking. And that's, that's really useful. So I'm going to make a recommendation, ideally, based on your decision making values, the ones I've just understood, or I might recommend that you change something about them, which is where the real influence comes in. I want to change something like change, how you're making that decision, and what the criteria are, and what the board or the criteria are, and what they mean, that can be something new that you're not aware of. Where because I'm in the space all the time, so I'm educating you, it's something different, you might want to consider. So make the recommendation. And then moment number six is the agreeing part. Which is ideally what the whole conversation is about. Although you're making you're making agreements all the way through you're agreeing to meet you're agreeing to relate you're agreeing to the what you are fundamentally doing is you're teaching them that being with you is a series of agreements, not because you're tricking them, or hypnotizing them that you just say this is the vital developer. So you're making a recommendation then the final step is agree and you're going to get one it's meant something to me. I'm gonna give you one of three answers. I'm gonna say yes. Which is a great answer. I'm gonna send which I love. I love the nose. They might get a baby and the reason I love no it's not like this old school like you know, Wolf of Wall Street type. No, it's not like that. Like I'm gonna translate that no into a no no. No's are great because too often particularly with the clients I work with people are nice to each other. Or nice thing No, which is it that would be honest answer they just pretend it's going to progress but never really does. And both people waste a whole lot of time meeting and discussing things exchanging emails nothing ever happens and so I think knows that if it's if it's a proper if it's a deal breaking know when it's a no where you can't progress that's that that's a good one to have and hopefully you've got the level of relationship where people say no to you yeah no is a really important answer to get so he couldn't get yes she could get notes so you go

Adam Liette
yeah

i Yeah, just taken aback by that. I don't know why that hit me so hard like no it's it's a hard one to get you always get maybe you Oh, maybe maybe someday or and you know, there it says that wishy washy. I'm saving face but we have no problem telling an absolute no to someone that we have a better yeah.

Peter Anthony
And I don't know how many times your listeners like to time it with customers or in or business relationships where they think it's easy. It's going to be yes. And they waste a whole bunch of time and eventually it's a no yeah, like a scene stakeout hasn't been engaged or the price is wrong or something there's a deal breaking factor that if up front it would never progressed and you want to know early. Right? And you want to be you want to be big enough to to get to take the notes that you're welcome.

Adam Liette
You know what, I've been on sales before if you guys have ever done sales calls and like, within like two minutes, I knew it was a no. And so I just like had a nice friendly chat. And then instead of doing like the usual sales spoof, that's what Well, let me just give you upfront and I gave him the offer. I was like, Yeah, dude, that ain't gonna work. I'm like, that's fine. We'll chat for another five minutes. And we can just be friends. But it's so refreshing to get that and you can start to feel it out when you're gonna get it. But I'm, like actually getting he's kind of kind of nice, in a way.

Peter Anthony
Yeah, I think we've all been guilty. I've been guilty of it to where I've been, like nice to people when it's really two years. But now I'm, I give them a nice, nice, so sorry. I really appreciate it. To me, it's completely out of my ballpark. That's never going to happen. So, but thank you, I appreciate you give me a call and say to me and try and close it down as quickly as I can. That's hard reaching out. But if they're reaching out to me with something that is something I mean, I got that cold call recently for somebody selling Harley Davidson motorbikes right. Now, now, that's a real that's a real nice, that's very unique. Yes. Because the first the first question she asked was, Do you own a motorbike? I said, No, she has ever ever written a motorbike. I said, No. And she said, Would you ever consider buying a motorbike? And I said, No. And she said, Well, perhaps you should be thinking about Harley Davidson. I thought, why would I think about Harley? It's just part of No. Means I want a Harley Davidson look sorry, but thanks for the call. But nowadays, the following goes

Adam Liette
straight to a Harley Davidson. Okay. Like that's not a beginner bike. Everyone knows that.

Peter Anthony
I don't think the road I don't think road safety in Sydney, Australia needs me on a Harley Davidson. I think pedestrian traffic would be an ally Davidson wouldn't be good business. And the final? I guess the final answer, you're gonna get a yes, you're gonna get a no, you might get a maybe make an offer? Maybe yes. Maybe like like this. There could be something in this package, maybe? And then you'll need a simple negotiating tool you can use to translate that maybe into a yes, that's good for you, which might be the next conversation that you have. You wouldn't be able to welcome each of each of those that that yes, no. Or maybe and then. Then you're echoing back to what I suggested. When you were leading about the next step. You said, Well, Adam, this has been fantastic. It's been a really useful, productive conversation, like, looks like we can progress and look at how we can potentially deepen the relationship and show our services or our products or your product demonstration with the next step might be, let's see if we can get the key people in the room and make that happen. And then that becomes the next step. Well, the next step might be, look, there's been a great conversation. And looks like we can't progress with you. I really appreciate your time today. And I wish you in the business well. So it could be whatever that next step is, or it might be, I might, if it's okay with you, I might give you a call next quarter just to see how you're traveling on next. All

Adam Liette
right, the really

Peter Anthony
cool thing is if you keep using six moments, you get really good at them. It's practice. Yeah, practice, practice. And, and the more people that the thing I find most fascinating is understanding how people make decisions. I love it. Syria, I know it's really cool. And how other people's criteria mix it with that, too. It's really it makes it really interesting.

Adam Liette
Yeah, cuz you're like, you're ating the decision making process from a from just so it's such a different perspective than the typical sales argument. In the sales flow, where it's, it feels more organic. I think that's kind of the key to it is it's literally it's a conversation with guides. That's how I'm seeing it in my mind is like it's a guided conversation. And, yeah, and for whatever it's worth listeners, I I'm thinking of ways I can use this with subordinates, with team members that I'm technically boss over and in charge of it. Let me tell you, the least effective way of leadership you're ever going to use in your entire life is the same least effective way of parenting, because I said, so. That doesn't work. It doesn't work for team leading, it doesn't work for parenting. And if you can learn to use these same six moments with your team, imagine the cooperation you're gonna have and what that's going to do for your, your status as a leader, your status, as you know, in the organization, the organization's ability to move together and a collaborative dude. It's like right there.

Peter Anthony
Exactly. You can use it, you can just be supportive and she could also use it if you're, if you think of the whole 360 As a leader, you think, Okay, I've got people reporting to me, I'm going to collaborate with them and build respect and build what I like to think of as followership. I don't think so I think I think of people wanting to wanting to be led by me, so that they want to follow me as as a leader, and they want to follow because I understand and I've taken the time to collaborate with them and understand what they are. Or it could be my peers and key stakeholders that they kind of lie on in my organization that I need to collaborate with, and potentially achieve outcomes together business outcomes, and also the people above me, my bosses, I can collaborate with them say, Hey, what are you looking for? From me in this role? What are the key criteria you're looking for? In successful delivery of this role? What does that mean for you, I'm keen to make sure I'm delivering according to your agenda, you can ask the same questions. And really importantly, this is probably 70 to 80% of where I teach this is with customer client relationships and partnering relationships. This translates the relationship when you start talking to clients and customers like this. And then I think you're selling to them. And for the really, the little ones, you have conversations for the big ones, get them in a room and have this conversation in the room with the key customer decision makers or like a partner in meeting say, Look, we're really keen on making this relationship more ideal for you. And what does ideal look like? What is what does that mean for you? Like, what are the criteria of an ideal relationship with us? How would you order those things? What do they mean to you? It completely changes the relationship to it, you can use it, you can use it anywhere. I mean, there's even a guy that your listeners have probably heard of John Gottman, the teachers he's got the Love Lab in Washington State University. And he teaches this to couples, he teaches conversational relationships in couples. Yeah, and he's looking at looks for the four horsemen of the apocalypse. He talks about nieces, it gets them on the couch, and it says, Look, just talk to her about anything at all. And we're going to content analyze the conversation, looking for these four horsemen of the apocalypse. Because he says again, he says the relationship is the quality of the conversations you guys are having. And he says, Look, unless you change how you're talking to each other, this has boomed. Yeah, he's got like, what, 30 years of science behind this, what he's Cadis content analysis by verbatim expression, if he's content, analyzing conversation, and you think of any great relationship like that, that's, that's how it works. So you can use it, you can use it anywhere. You can use it in any relationship, friendship, parenting, leading following, you can use it with customers. It's, it's, it's universal. And more, the more you practice, the better you get is practice, and practice and practice and practice it, recognizing these moments and making it consequent forcing it on them making it conversational, and just letting it flow. And it works. I mean, this is, I mean, I hate to get the younger listeners but but collaboration is the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Yeah. This was how homosapiens one over or the other the the thoughts of apes looking around, because they learn to learn to collaborate with each other and do stuff together. Right?

Adam Liette
Out there, Dr. De Niro data and influence the whole chapter on reciprocity. He's talking about how reciprocity is so deeply ingrained in human nature, it's the reason societies actually exist, we wouldn't exist if it weren't for these innate forces that are inside ourselves, to work with one another and to, to be reciprocal in nature and to have are these relationships so we're taking what's already human nature, and we're applying ourselves to it.

Peter Anthony
Exactly. And there was a really recent example to it was Illinois Ostrom. She was the last woman to won a Nobel Prize for physics and physics or mathematics. And she, what she was studying was what she called what they call the tragedy of the commons, which is like, in medieval times, when we were working cattle, we'd have like, you'd have your cattle that my cattle on and be four or five different cattle farmers might have some common land they share their cattle on. And it was it was in our personal selfish interest to own. Like you put your cattle on there, and you're going to overgrazed it. So when my cattle get there, they got no grass to feed it right. Collective best interest to not over grazing, so the grass is gonna last for longer. And she, she developed this approach to the societies that ran their common land well, called pro social collaboration where each farmer was better off. Plus the environment was better off because the environment is better off because it wasn't big overgrazed and she won a Nobel Prize for it's called pro social collaboration. So it's, it's in the evolutionary spirits of culture. We know it's in teams. And this is just making it translated. With compensation, that's yeah, that's all it is. That's why I'm probably sounding a bit amped up. Because I swept into cold water this morning, like I do most mornings. But whenever I get to talk about this, I love a veg thing about it. Because after doing this for 20 years, I know how well it works. And it's not that hard.

Adam Liette
Yeah. And I'll tell you what really gets me excited. And this is like, if you want to get out, I'm excited to talk about second third order effects. Think about your team leader. Like I lead people I have people following me. What am I really teaching my people that are following me there? They're all trying to mirror me? Like I know they are, because I see it in their communications. And so if I can be a better leader, through these types of communications, these collaborative conversations, if I can be a better father, through these, what am I doing? I'm inculcating the next generation with these tools. Just by living them. They're experiencing it through me. And it's gonna continue on because they're gonna model me not some charlatan that they saw on a YouTube video telling them how to do it like they're gonna follow me. Oh, that geeks makes me geek out brother. I love it.

Peter Anthony
It Yeah, it also if that's one thing, you can teach your guys in a team. Not not just with you, but also with each other. And if you can, if you look at like successful, whatever model of culture you use an organization's all the models have a constructive element as the most successful. Value building models in organizations and companies and constructed cultures are built on collaboration and affiliative relationships. That's like a cornerstone for all of them. Yeah, well, how do we collaborate, but that's it's really key, whether it's a nd the interesting work they've been doing more recently now is looking at growth in shareholder value. And they found that organizations that are the most constructive, and the most collaborative are the ones that have the strongest growth in shareholder value. And interestingly enough, the ones that are also have the most diversity in their decision making. Not because diversity is a good thing, which now it is to to be inclusive, which is good morally, it's also good financially, because if you can find getting those diverse people together, and making decisions together, that diverse group will make a smarter decision than its smartest business shareholder value and profitability. And interesting enough to their found a growth in profitable sales value to serve customers buy more from organizations that are collaborative and constructive. So it's a, it's a win, win, win it, it works, it works well across the board.

Adam Liette
I think with that last point, it's almost like we're, there's this essence we're putting into the world with our companies with how we're leading our companies and how we're communicating. It's I don't know, carpe, not karma, that's the wrong word. But like, it's this energy we're putting out and like, the people can feel it, and there's this, it almost connects them that gets formed,

Peter Anthony
exists. More than ever, this is an important message for somebody thinking about because I was looking at some Pew Research recently where they said, polarized, and never less likely to change our opinions than ever their social media, or one reason because we get bombarded with the same message over and over again. So where we are more polarized since COVID, particularly in my country, people are more anxious and more fearful and more depressed and less optimistic about the future. And you think well, if I'm more polarized if I'm, if I'm not feeling optimistic about the future, one way to feel better, stronger relationships and all good positive psychology suggest to us that the number one marker for happiness is is good, strong relationships, interpersonal relationships, romantic relationships, parenting relationships, so business relationships, it's, it's going to make me happy. It's gonna make me happy joy, joy, but happy. Happy in my mind bones. Right?

Adam Liette
Yeah, dude, we could go on all night. And but

Peter Anthony
it would be dangerous. It's only it's only it's only morning for me. I've already had two coffees and assuming the cold ocean so I'm amped up.

Adam Liette
I can tell beta we're gonna have to connect. We're gonna stay in touch man. Like, I definitely like we got this good vibe going on. I can tell like we're gonna do some good, some good damage and a good way. There's some collaboration in the future.

Peter Anthony
It sounds like a plan. It sounds like a plan.

Adam Liette
Fantastic. And so for those that are listening, where can they find out more about you? Peter, where? Where can they continue their learning? Well, if

Peter Anthony
you'd like to, I wrote a book on this called collaborative, which sounds like abracadabra, but it's collaborative fabrics, the magic of collaborative conversations, you can find that on Amazon. Or you can find me online at Peter any consulting.com. All one word. It's got tons of details on the workshops in the programs that I do. But I have a look at the book that probably the best place to start because it takes you through those six moments in the

Adam Liette
nice. Well, I'm going to order the book tonight, for sure. Any other I'm a huge reader. So I always ask every every guest to book recommendations like what what are they not reading that you think they should read?

Peter Anthony
Well, I think most of the books they should read you I think we've talked about already, I really love what I just dipped into again recently, which is an oldie but a goodie by Viktor Frankl, search for meaning. And I think that's a that is still the biggest selling software book of all time, 7 million copies. We all know a concentration camp survivor. And what I what I love about that approach is what he's reminding us about is he's saying there's a gap between the stimulus and the response. And that gap is your freedom. Like you've got to, you've got a choice to how you respond. I really, I really enjoy that. And the other another oldie and a goodie. Because some some of the older books. They have wisdom that sometimes we forget. And that will be Stephen Covey. That's I mean, one of the habits I picked up which is seek first to understand before seeking to be understood. I love habits I like we're cubby comes from in terms of his intent. And it's there useful habits to be living by. So I've got no fresh new visa, just a couple of old like a couple of our Beatles tracks that nice. They get back onto it from time to time.

Adam Liette
There's nothing I mean, they're classics for a reason, right? My Yeah, they good books survived the test of time. And it is universal. It doesn't matter. That it's some some some guys got it right the first time and there's no improving upon it. I think both those books are perfect examples of that. There's a reason no one's come out with the eight Habits of Highly Effective People. I couldn't find the

Peter Anthony
son, Stephen R. Covey. Tried to do that. But I think it worked as well. I think that is sometimes it just like a great site. It has a it has a has a message in it. And it's just perfect. And I think I think Man's Search for Meaning is perfect. I think seven habits is, is perfect. They're both up in my bookcase. I keep keeping it I've got like most of us a bookcase full of stuff up stuff. I keep dipping back into the old, the old ones that useful ones through soaps have.

Adam Liette
Beautiful. Oh, fantastic. Well, thank you so much, Peter, this has been an absolute pleasure. I've really enjoyed getting to know you. And having this conversation. And for those of you are wondering, yes, we had, like the whole setting of goal building rapport taking no, we actually did that before we hit record. So that did happen on this conversation as well. We built rapport and all those good things. And the mirroring and pacing off each other. We did that from like minute till half within 10 seconds. And we're start mirroring each other because I'm actually a disciplinarian, of a lot of those skills as well. So we were like bouncing off each other right away. And so these are all great skills to have, and get the book definitely check out Peter online and start employing these things. And I think you're going to be very happy not only the results, but most importantly how you feel in the conversations. So often sales conversations suck because they're against what we want to do anyway, this is how we want to communicate, so why not lean into it? This is way more fun. So yeah, let's go for it. Cool. Awesome.

Peter Anthony
What? Adam, thank you so much. And we shall Bliss has a wonderful night and a great week ahead collaborating.