What does it take to manage a growing, fully remote team?

Today I’m joined with the amazing Nicole Baldinu from Webinar Ninja and the $100 MBA Podcast.

Nicole has managed this company from startup to being one of the biggest podcasts in the world and has a wealth of knowledge.

This interview was so much fun and I’m really looking forward to staying in touch with Nicole. I know you’ll enjoy hearing the incredible lessons that she’s learned on her journey.

Learn more at https://www.adamliette.com

Discover how to work with me: https://www.adamliette.com/work-with-me

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Transcript

Adam Liette
So I have a special guest with us for our Friday interview. And I'm really excited about this one guys, you know me, I get super nerdy about the awesome people, I'm able to get on to the show. And this one is no exception, because I have someone in operations and operators just make me geek out in all sorts of ways, as you know by now, but I'm joined by Nicola Dino, with, she's with webinar ninja, and the $100 MBA podcast. And she's the CEO for webinar ninja and the podcast. And thank you so much for joining me today. And I have to confess straight up front, Nicole. I wasted not wasted. I improperly invested two and a half years of my life to getting an MBA. And I learned one heck of a lot more from your guys's show than I did from that two and a half years. So the huge credit to the content you guys are bringing and so great to have you on the show. Thank you.

Nicole Baldinu
Oh, Adam, thank you so much. It's awesome. Glad to be here. Thank you. Yeah, look, the content, the curriculum, the whole MBA stuff, that's all credit to Omar, he puts all that content together. But we get that feedback a lot. You know, the price of an MBA that whole investment and time is just yeah, sometimes not really worth it, depending on what you're getting it for. So yeah, we've heard that before. So thank you for really appreciate that feedback.

Adam Liette
Absolutely. So I was reading into the company, and I think it started like nine years ago, is that correct?

Nicole Baldinu
Yeah. 2014 was when we launched at the end of 2013, we launched the $100 NBA and, and then not that long after 2014, the 100 NBA Show podcast was launched, and webinar ninja as well of that same year. But over and I teamed up today, this is a significant year, because it's it really marks the 10 years that we've been together as, as a couple as co founders and you know, leaving out on education and that career to you know, build a business. So it's a decade on, but um, yeah, eight, nine years now with the businesses.

Adam Liette
And the CEO Omar's, your husband, right?

Nicole Baldinu
Yes. Yeah, so we're a co founding couple, as well.

Adam Liette
That CEO CEO relationship is always interesting. Anyway, I know that as a former CEO, how is it when it's your husband? How does that work?

Nicole Baldinu
It's your Yeah, it's an interesting dynamic, you're right, because I think because we're a couple as well. There's a lot of CO running a lot of code decisions that are made a lot of a lot of communication about what we're doing. So in that traditional sense that I learned, you know, later on in us through through, you know, through trial and error, you know, there's supposed to be or supposed to be that kind of clear demarcation between the CEO, the visionary, and then the CEO, or the integrator is, you know, thanks to Gina Whitman. And I don't know if anyone else came up with that. But, you know, that role had usually tend to be very kind of, you know, separated and did delineated. But when it's a husband and wife dynamic, then sometimes there's a bit of, you know, crossover. So it is an interesting one to navigate. And honestly, throughout the years, we've, we've learned how we work together, we've learned, I had to find my place in the in the company, because I had a lot less business experience when we started. And so for me, it was navigating, well, how do I best fit into the work that we're doing the different roles as a team is growing. Whereas, you know, Omar had much more business experience. So he was very much more the visionary. And so I would kind of try and find my place, but that, where sometimes I would get tripped up is like, well, I've got some ideas too. And not that he would ever stop me from sharing those ideas. In fact, he welcomes all of that. But it's where those lines blur a little bit between those two roles.

Adam Liette
Absolutely, I completely understand that I'm married to an entrepreneur as well, different business, but we're both out of the same house. So we have those nice little moments of negotiation, let's say and there's something really healthy about both being I mean, it's a different kind of mindset to be able to, like thrust ourselves out in the world vulnerable. And it takes a lot of courage on both parts to really just not just settle for the, I don't want to be little the nine to five, but it's a different mindset versus when we're out there creating and bringing our work home with us, because we can't turn it off. I mean, it's not possible. So.

Nicole Baldinu
And that's where it helps when you are like, you know, you're working with your partner. You know, the fact that you can both really relate to each other struggles, this, the stresses that you're going through the challenges that you're going through celebrating the winds, and really feeling like what those winds are because you get it, I think there's something quite special about it. So it is a very, I think it's a we're in a very fortunate position that we can work together. But it might not work for everyone. But we've definitely made it work which is which is great.

Adam Liette
Good thing is like, a partner in this space understands how exciting a high converting lead magnet is. Right? And it's like, we can share these super nerdy parts of our job. And they get excited about it too. So I love it. It's wonderful.

Nicole Baldinu
Magnet, no lead magnet. Okay, I get it.

Adam Liette
I'm gonna try that one next time. Love it. Awesome. So when you're getting started just flashing back to that, because I felt the same way like who am I to be getting into this this online thing. And back in 2014, it was a tirely different landscape. So what were the some of the things that you took on to like, prepare yourself for the role, and then that continuing growth that had to happen while the company was growing?

Nicole Baldinu
Yeah, I mean, look, it's, if I take it back to 2020 12, when I left, I left a career in teaching. So did Omar who, you know, had been side hustling building businesses on the side, but he was essentially a teacher, I left teaching, I went via the film school route to try something different, I started freelancing. And really, when I started freelancing, that's when I kind of got a bit of an insight into what it's like to be, you know, your own boss, and to manage, you know, all the operations, like you've got to, you know, invoice, you've got to charge, you've got to follow up, you got to chase up clients, you got to deliver work on time. So I kind of got a little bit of that through the freelancing. But, you know, when when we started to, when we, you know, decided, okay, let's build the $100 MBA, you know, I'm I had this idea, he wanted to build this online, business training community for people like, this was in our pre chat, and he mentioned, you know, going to business school, like he wanted to build something that would be accessible for someone who wanted to start an online business, but didn't want to invest all that money and time into a full fledged MBA. So when he came to me with that idea, I thought, Well, this sounds great. This sounds like another exciting project, I would never have thought, you know, okay, this is the two of us, we're working on something, it's a project. When does it become a business? Well, that's another question, right? And when that happens, then you start to, okay, this is much bigger than just me and you, and you know, who we're serving, it starts to become much bigger than that. So it took a Yeah, it took a long time. I mean, I don't know what would be most. I think at the time, when we first launched the $100 NBA, I basically, you know, what my role there was, like, what could I do? What skills did I have, then, that I could contribute? So you know, I created the curriculum, who's gonna be on camera who's going to teach the lessons, this is the video training, this is before the podcast and podcast came about eight months later. And so I had video fresh video skills from film school, you know, then later on, I converted those into audio editing skills. So for me, it was just really supporting that vision, you know, which is a bit of the the integrator role, you know, to the visionary person. So supporting that vision and just being on board and doing what I could to to make it happen, whether it was we're going, we're going to launch now we're doing a launch sequence. We're going to accept our first Members, we're going to email those, those members, all of those things that was all new to me, I didn't really have that business experience. So definitely learned learned a ton over the last 10 years.

Adam Liette
Well, the best teachers doing, isn't it. And what did you teach? Because I think it's fast. I was a teacher to way back in the day I was. Really? Yeah, I was. My first degree was in music education. I was a high school band director, if you can believe it. Think I'm revealing that for the first time on the podcast, that's good. That's fine. Whatever

Nicole Baldinu
it is, no, I was just saying I'm envious of anyone who has any musical talent. So that sounds awesome. I was a English teacher. So English is a second language, but my original training was in languages other than English, so I taught French, Italian Spanish. And then I majored more and focus more We're on English as a second language because I left Australia to start teaching overseas, I taught in Japan for a bit I taught in Dubai for a bit. So then I was mostly teaching English as a second language to high school students.

Adam Liette
Fantastic. And right there, you get the cultural experience that that kind of background in this field, especially with remote teams, you can't just I mean, it's so you can't take a course that's going to teach you how to be multicultural, like you are going to experience by actually living overseas, being immersed in the culture that way, which I think is awesome.

Nicole Baldinu
I don't know if I thought of it at that point in time, I when I think about the the team now, the spread of cultures, the time zones that were spread across, and I will probably get get into that. Because I often reflect on what I took from my early career as a teacher for over a decade into business. And, and I think interestingly, too, with operations, there's so much organization that teachers have, because they have to be organized, they're accountable to goals and outcomes, and all of that. And I think I've definitely carried that over and over, it's reflected on the, the different cultural experiences and how that's informed, you know, the fact that we've, you know, brought on people from different parts of the world different cultural backgrounds, and really feel like the, we've been able to integrate those different cultures into the company, and and have that representation from from different parts of the world. Thanks for that.

Adam Liette
Absolutely. It's one of my, like, continuously evolving paradigms, and I'm trying to rest restaurant in my own mind, like the idea of, like, what does it actually mean to be multicultural, it's, it's less of like, I'm going to adapt or adopt their cultures, but more of I'm going to understand and adapt to them, if that makes sense. Like no one expects you to, I spent a lot of time in Thailand. And so I was actually my best friend was a former monk. So I would go to the Buddhist temples with him. And like, no one expected me to understand what, but the fact that I took off my shoes without being told to was like, Oh, this is wonderful. And then the next year I was in Burma. And I just did what I was supposed to do without being told on all locals like this, this white dude knows what he's doing is crazy. And but it's just those little triggers that we can do that just show I appreciate your your culture, and you know, some of those little things that just that little flag of, I'm with you. Kind of thing. Yeah, cuz

Nicole Baldinu
you've got that awareness that probably you wouldn't have, if you didn't put yourself in those different situations, different countries, different cultures. So for

Adam Liette
sure. And plus, it's super fun, isn't it?

Nicole Baldinu
How often does

Adam Liette
what so often happens with the company and so we have different cultures coming together, especially right now, we're all remote teams, and I love it, my the world is my hiring pool. So fantastic. But we also have to be building a team culture. So we have to be taking from all these different cultures, but building our unique team culture. So I'd love to hear some of your thoughts and strategies on building team culture and some things that have worked really well for you.

Nicole Baldinu
Yeah, I think we became conscious of how the way our values the way we've, you know, role model, our values, and the things that we feel are very important, they tend to, you know, flow on to the team, and, you know, it's either people are on or they're on board with it or, or they're not, and, you know, through the hiring process, you, you try and make sure that those expectations are clear. So, you know, it could be anything as simple as, like, back back in the day, you know, when remote work wasn't that that common and video conferencing and video calls weren't, weren't so, so common, but just being you know, the expectation of when we do meet, we turn on our cameras, we see each other, that can be quite confronting, or, you know, can put certain people at discomfort because it could be whether they might be, I don't know, they might be embarrassed about where they live, you know, maybe their living conditions is not, you know, the same as someone else's living conditions. So there could be all these little differences. So, you know, just just setting those expectations at the outset so that you don't make people feel uncomfortable, you don't, you know, bring on people that kind of aren't on board with the same values that you're on board with. So, you know, we tried to like operationalize our values, you know, you can say have all these values and you can put them up and you know, say that these were they these is this is what they are but you really have to make be conscious when you're building that team culture that you are referring to them that they are part of the team culture. And so you know, that whole one of our team values is a team player spirit, and that shows up when you know you're participating on video calls or, you know, you're giving a heads up if you're not going to be there at a meeting or something like that. So, you know, just constantly being mindful of like, what are our values, hiring for people who, you know, can get on board with the same values. And, you know, they say, hire and fire against your company values. And then just making sure that everyone's a good fit, you know, and that they can, that they can feel comfortable in that company, because if they don't feel comfortable, then that's not the right place for them to work. And that's okay. They're probably better suited somewhere else. And that's okay. No one has not every single person has to love your company and feel comfortable, because they may not thrive in your company. So you can really leave that spot for somebody else.

Adam Liette
I love that especially you said operationalize our values. I think like this slogan, mission statement, doesn't. Everyone's so jaded on it. And it doesn't, oh, your mission statement? That's so cool. But it's like, okay, but what are you doing for me? Like, how are you living this? And so, like, making sure we are, because so often the CEO, I mean, we are so often that the leader of the team and the day to day, and so they're looking towards us, so all the operators out there, listen, and your team is looking at you, and they are going to model your behavior, your how you're showing up every day. And like you have to lead with those values. And so if you want to build that culture, operationalize it, live it, find ways to put it into action. I think that's goosebumps, I love it. It's so cool. And so when you're when you're doing that hiring process, because you mentioned if they, they fit the culture, like we'll figure out a way to make them work. I agree. 100%, if they fit our culture, they might not be good over in this job, but I'll find a place for them. Is that kind of your thoughts? Or is it interviewing for culture fit first? Or how do you do that in the hiring process.

Nicole Baldinu
So when I say culture fit, it's that like, I don't want it to be misunderstood as like everyone has to fit, you know, a particular culture. I mean, there might be different understandings of that word. But you know, as I said, In the beginning, we have nine different time zones, we've got people spread out across different continents before we should count them, probably all the continents as well, but are the ones that are uninhabited. And so so there's definitely a wide representation of cultures, but it's the culture of those company values. So like I said, the team player spirit, or if we're going to be, you know, open and open and transparent communication is another one of our values. So we, you know, we want to see in that hiring process, is this person, a good communicator, because it's especially, you know, important as a remote team, that we're really able to communicate and communicate in different modes. So, maybe someone is maybe a little bit more shy on camera when they're in a meeting, but you know, if they've written communication skills are good. And if they're willing to be a very communicative person that you can normally tell, when you're hiring, then they'll follow up with, you know, you know, our written communication, or now, project management tools that we use, or they'll respond with emojis, like that acknowledgement of, you know, what someone has, has shared on Basecamp, for example, so we use Basecamp. So you know, that open and transparent communication is something that we're looking for, in that interview, interview process, because, you know, we're definitely, definitely looking for skill, you know, you're hiring for skill, but it's that attitude and that culture that you can't really train, you know, you either have it or you don't. And so those are, yeah, I mean, we didn't always get it right, you know, but over time, we learned to have different layers in our hiring process, so that we could just, you know, maybe filter out some of the candidates that wouldn't, wouldn't fit in the end. And then it's great as a team, like the biggest one of the biggest rewards for us is when we hired our first team members, and then they brought friends and family, we've got two sisters who work together. And it's just like, you know, it's that kind of, you know, nps 100. Right, your score is right up there. If it's like, would you recommend your company to someone else? Well, when they do, that's, that's a huge statement of how they feel about about their job. And so we've got a couple of teammates who've brought on other teammates and who are still with us, he is on so pretty proud of that.

Adam Liette
So Oh, for sure. Yeah. And I think so often in our roles, when we're talking about something like this, we're always adds it's like two or three bad hires that are like, you can tell it's a slight like, I still feel bad about this. But then, but then you have those success stories, Nicole that says, Oh, I love it. And that's so cool that like they're bringing Their friends into we experienced that, that the music company I was working for were like people were can my husband get a job here? It's like, we'll figure it out. Come on, bring him on. So that's Sony. One little trick that I've learned, then I'll share with you in the audience is you talked about communication skills and like being transparent during the hiring process, just little hack I would do during their, I do the culture fit interview. And then we'd have like some trial tasks and stuff. But I was monitoring all their communications to me in between. So every email, I got every Slack message I got, I just put it into a Google Doc. So I could like track their communication with me over the period of the of the hiring process. Because you can you see the the rockstars start to emerge right there. The people are just gonna come to come to bat.

Nicole Baldinu
Yeah, that makes sense. Now, yeah. Okay. Well, I like that. Yep. That makes a lot of sense. Because you because you're specifically looking at your phone, you're let you're laser focused on Okay, let me look at that we pull out all the ways they communicated, whether it's email, text, whatever it was, and you're analyzing just that on its own. That's, that's interesting. I like that. I will have to adopt that one.

Adam Liette
It's actually bonus points if I give them a trial task. And they ask a question, because I'll, I'll sometimes put a little mistake in there to see what happens. So if they ask a clarifying question, like who you just moved up a couple notches. So yes, good, because we're gonna screw up and we're human. And they need to see that's huge.

Nicole Baldinu
Yeah, no, you're right. And so just throw it almost sometimes it's a bit of a throw, make sure you ask questions, asking questions are encouraged. But do you actually follow through and see that they do ask questions? Yeah. So I like that you've brought that up. I think that's really valuable for people to, to to make sure that they realize, okay, I might say ask questions. But are they actually asking questions, and if they're not, then they're probably not doing it, they're not going to be able to do other things that you expect them to do as well.

Adam Liette
Or I need to make the trial task way harder. Fantastic. So with spread across nine days, nine time zones, I should say, is there like a webinar ninja workday? Or is everyone kind of empowered to work their own? Or how do you manage that? Because I've heard all sorts of different answers. I've tried every solution under the sun, and none of them really worked perfectly. But I'd love to know how how you're making it work.

Nicole Baldinu
That's yeah, it's a good one. Um, so there isn't like one. Yeah, because let's just say, Oh, we're over and I are based in Australia, headquarters are in Australia. So everyone's going to work on Australian time, like office hours. No. I mean, you can do that, like you said that, that could be one way of doing it, and then see how that that works. So and again, because again, it's been like a very organic, slow growth of the team over the years, to hiring from different parts of the world, we relocated to up until 2016. I'm Rene, we're based in San Diego. So then we came to back to my hometown, Sydney. So we experienced, you know, having those working those hours versus working hour hours. So it is role dependent. And then so for example, our support team, because we try to have as much coverage without for our support hours, then there will be teammates who do a night shift, or I don't like what they call their, you know, it's referred to as the graveyard shift, I don't know. But that night shift is one of the shifts that are covered. And so again, in the hiring process, it's about expectations. It's about bringing on people who are prepared to do that, if that's the role that they're going to do. So we haven't had any problems with people, we would rotate that, that schedule as well amongst the team, so most of our support team there in the Philippines. So we you know, we find ways to make it work so that it's comfortable for them. But there is the expectation that those are the hours and they'll work those hours, then, like let's say with other teams like engineering, or product UX UI design, you want there to be some overlap. So when you are hiring, and when you're thinking about, well, how's this person going to fit in the team? So you might set some expectations? Like it would be great, if, you know, would you be willing to overlap with this time zone for you know, half of your, your working day. And again, so that's all set up at the beginning at the outset. And so again, there's there shouldn't be any, any issues with that if they've accepted to come on board. So pretty much what that means is given the nine time zones, given the different roles given the different overlapping times, there's always someone on 24/7 working on the $100 bill or webinar ninja, which I think is pretty cool in many ways because when you are On a remote team where people are working in their own places and their own homes, their own spaces, it can get lonely, it can be sometimes a bit of a siloed situation where you're working on your own. So one of the things too, is that when we're hiring, you do have to make sure that the person is able to be independent work alone and not, you know, find it hard to be self motivated, self starter and all of that. But it's nice that there's always someone else, somewhere around the world that they can chat to, you know, whether it's on Basecamp, or we also have a virtual office as well, where the team can can jump into that's something we've done now for about two years, which has been a really like, I was surprised at the uptake of that, but happy that it worked. Yeah.

Adam Liette
How does the virtual office work? Is it a software suite? Or what is that?

Nicole Baldinu
Oh, no, it's a Google meet room.

Adam Liette
Google Beat room. Okay. Pretty simple. I love off commercial off the shelf solutions. That's awesome.

Nicole Baldinu
Yeah, so they just have a link that's, you know, that's open, and they can go in there. And they can work. They can ask questions. It was great when, you know, new teammates started, when they, you know, they had questions. And of course, you know, a lot of the times maybe though, if they're reporting to me or Omar, they would have questions for me. But there's other people that they can go to on the team, they can hop into the virtual office, or they can send a message on Basecamp. And it's just, yeah, they have someone there to chat to. So I think it's pretty cool.

Adam Liette
Is that something you have dedicated hours where you're available in there for questions? Or like, how did how does that work with your schedule?

Nicole Baldinu
So I mean, I'm, you know, I'm and I will work quite long days, as you do, and you're founders. And but, you know, we're We also established that we are an asynchronous team as well, that's one of the things that we established, so no one expects an immediate response. That's not the expectation that we set. But of course, we understand if those are your hours, that timeliness of a response, we do set, you know, like, you can't leave at 1224 hours before you get 24 hours. Before you get back to someone depending on you know, if you're if you're on that on that week, if it's not a weekend, for example. So yeah, so I'm around I make our availability, we'll hop into the virtual office, we don't have set hours that were in there, but because we're on Basecamp, we're just a ping away. We're in all the different campfires, for all the different teams were pretty available, you know, most of the time and this was sleeping, which is maybe not, not something that we want to encourage encouraged too much.

Adam Liette
Well, you know, my theory to that Nicole is the you must have this work life balance. It's like, don't tell me what my work life balance should be. If I'm happy with it, then I'm happy with it. You know, the nice thing about being most of his work from home is good. I leave the office, sometimes at three o'clock for a half an hour to run my kid somewhere, then I come back. And I might mean, I'd make it up at night. Okay, gotcha. I have no problems with that.

Nicole Baldinu
Yeah, again, it's this idea of like, these imposed rule of what the weekend is what the hours are, and I get that, but I think as entrepreneurs, we tend to be quite self aware, hopefully. And you know, you develop a new phone, you try and build on and work on your self awareness. So no one's saying that you have to, I'm not saying that you have to work 15 hours every day, until your eyeballs bleed. But you know, you know, when you can push yourself on some days, and when you need to pull back on other days. And the great thing is with remote work with a remote team, there's flexibility. And so while there's flexibility, you know, we we model that as well, we have flexibility, like you said, if I need to run out and do something I can do that I can communicate my status. And I don't take advantage of that. And you see that and you model that and you see that the team does the same thing. You know, when they say, Listen, I'm gonna go pick up my kid from school, I'm gonna step out, you know, make up those hours, it's fine, but they communicate because they see that we do the same thing. And we don't take advantage of that flexibility. But that flexibility is there, which is, you know, fantastic. It's awesome.

Adam Liette
I love that so much. It's like, we want you to be open and communicative. So we're gonna model it. And by virtue of us modeling it, you're gonna get that back in spades. It just, it's a natural occurrence on a team. That's awesome. Very cool. So I have I've always felt that I want to know your take on this because, like, we're in tech rolls half the time and I don't know about you like, my background is business and marketing. It is not Tech's UX, any of this image was a code that I can't copy from something, I can't do it. So how, how have you dealt with that with? Obviously the software as a service? Being the CEO, with having very tech oriented people under you working on projects? How have you managed not having the technical object technological background? To really know what they were working on? If that makes sense? It might have been a totally wording that question.

Nicole Baldinu
No, but I understand No, it's not a terrible way of wording it and, and that's where I feel like perhaps in bigger organizations, you know, the role of us see oh, wow, it's, it's, it's not easy, is it? Because they kind of like spread across all the functions, they really have this awareness and should have the awareness and hold everyone accountable across all the functions. But you're right. What if you're not, you know, it's a tech company, and you're not technical? How do you know that that developer isn't, you know, spending, you know, not working on the right things are saying he or she needed four hours to do something that could have taken an hour. Those are really good questions, and you find out over trial and error over time, and you build upon those skills, one of the things I think it's a value of mines, a personal value of mine is constant learning, lifelong learning, I definitely have learned a lot about the different roles in our company, the different functions. I think, in the beginning, when, as I said, like, right at the very beginning, it's like, what do I know how to do that I can do right now. That's what I'll work on. Then as the team grows, as the business needs grow, okay, what do I need to learn, so that I can also expand and add to my role. So in the beginning, I really didn't have management skills, I tended to lean towards, okay, I'm going to help out the support team, I'm really passionate about the customer experience, I'm gonna, you know, help the support team build out their SOPs, their systems, all of that. So that with that came, like, more of an understanding of customer service, you know, NPs managing team members, but still very, on the support side of things. Still, tech company, right. So now we've, we still have the product and engineering side of things, which for the first few years, I wasn't across as much as Omar by any means. So he had much more, he was leading those teams along with, you know, what, we had a CTO eventually and all of that. But over time, when I felt like I had trained my customer support manager, and she was, you know, totally able to be much more autonomous, then I could step into other meetings and other functions and be much more across other functions. So then I ended up, you know, attending more the product meetings and the engineering meetings and learning so much. And you'll be surprised at how quickly you can actually learn things, and how quickly you can pick things up. I think a lot of times I think teachers especially we feel like we default to education, we've got to spend years months learning something, when really an actual fact, like you said at the very beginning as soon as you start doing something is such an acceleration to getting that skill and getting an understanding. And so I was surprised at how much I could actually observe and learn and earn and apply to helping out managing product and also looking at you know, being across engineering to because there's my role trying to hold everybody accountable for you know, their departments. Marketing, you said marketing's I think we're a little bit opposite there, because marketing was kind of the last like, I was like, that that's something that's never felt really natural or comfortable. Again, it's just one of those things that you feel like, Oh, I've got to have a marketing degree to understand marketing. No, you don't. I've learnt that now. But um, it's still that was the kind of the one that I held it the, you know, a bit of a distance. But I can't do that. Because I'm operations, right. I'm the integrator. I'm making sure that no one's unblocked in any in any team, that people are meeting their deadlines that everyone has what they need to do to do their jobs. So I can't just say I'm not good at marketing. Well, yeah, that's not my strength. I'm just gonna leave that one to Omar, I'm gonna leave that one to the team. You know, the more involved you are the more engaged the more you'll actually get back. You know, it's, it's Yeah. I don't know if that answers your question. A bit longer.

Adam Liette
I think if I can, like my big learning point with from that was if you don't understand if you if it's a new thing for you, just jump into their meeting, stay silent. Take notes. We be a student and pick up what you can. And you'll pick up more the next week and then you'll pick up more the next week. And then by doing by being managing the whole thing and answering maybe not answering their question but pointing them to the person that can like being that facilitator because we don't have to be everything. Operators. We don't have to be everything Okay, you're not perfect. I say that that's like I've saved for myself to Nicole.

Nicole Baldinu
Yeah, but it's so true. Like you feel you have that pressure. And I learned over time that like you said, you start by just listening, being silent. It's okay. You don't have to say anything. If you haven't got anything to say in that moment, don't feel that pressure, then it's okay to ask questions. And, you know, they may you might feel like, Oh, they're going to going to be found out that I don't know, you have to get over that, especially when it's your business. It's like, I got to get over that like, so what I don't know that thing. Or maybe it was said last week, and I forgot. And I didn't didn't click, I'm going to ask that same question again. Because only then you're getting, you have to get out of your own way so that everyone else can do can do their job and everyone else can shine. And then you start asking the questions that are more like, more like connecting people to other people in the organization that can get things done. You don't have to be the source of knowledge, you know, for everything. And you start to train people as well in the team to be more resourceful because you're showing that it's okay to ask questions, it's okay to go and find out it's okay to ask someone else. You don't might not have all the answers. But you've got to be okay to demonstrate that as someone in leadership so that other people will do the same thing. Because you can't expect people to just be resourceful and you say Be resourceful. Go off and ask questions. They don't know what they don't know. Right.

So yeah,

Adam Liette
I love that. Just tell them to be resourceful. That doesn't work. I think the biggest biggest complaint I ever got from a team member and as like she was actually leaving the company. I was really sad about it. But it was personal reasons. And yeah, we're not to get into that. But she said, I would bring you problems, and you would come up with solutions. And if you couldn't come up with solutions, you tell me who could. And the fact that someone was actually listening to me that actively just met, I knew you cared about me, Adam, and it was like, I was crying like crazy. Because like

Nicole Baldinu
great feedback. Yeah. Even just being that sounding board sometimes. And again, people you learn in operations, too, that different people operate in different ways work in different ways are motivated by different things. This or you know, work through problems in a different way. So some people like to just think and go away and think and not be bothered. Others like to talk it out. Even the fact that this person was able to at least voice and present the problems. Maybe that time she needed you know you to come up with the solution. But maybe another time she'd come up with that solution herself, because she was able to you gave her that space to voice the problem. And not just high, you know, just keep it inside of her.

Adam Liette
I think it's something we see with virtual teams where we don't have the watercooler. We don't have the break room here on a virtual team. We have zoom, and Google meetings. And sometimes the best thing you can do as operator is just shut up and let someone vent and let someone talk it through. And I can just be nodding my head or asking probing questions. And like, oh, you helped me solve it. Like I didn't do anything. I just sat here and looked as pretty as I get, which isn't that pretty. But you did it yourself. But, you know, I think it's a really cool function we have.

Nicole Baldinu
Yeah, definitely. Yeah, that listening function is really goes a long way.

Adam Liette
Awesome. So I want to get I think that's the secret sauce we have. That's one of one of the next questions don't want to get to, like, what a secret sauce that operators have is listening, and just being that presence? What unique skills do you think that operators or CEOs really have to have or that you've learned, you had to develop to be your best person in the job?

Nicole Baldinu
I feel that it's to do with and listening helps facilitate this. But it is paying attention to the way each individual ticks and understand and really taking a personal interest in each person, and I think it would, I mean, like we're talking, okay, my experiences with a team of about 20 people. So maybe this doesn't apply to, you know, an operations person in a team of 100. But for me, my experience and I suppose your audience is in a similar vein, they've got small teams or they're solopreneurs by taking a personal interest in your team members, it's not only like that they feel like you care about them, and then they all show up even you know a better version of themselves because you're invested in them. You can, you can monitor for changes. You can kind of see where you know, kind of predict where things might go a little bit might not be going very well, because you're actually really paying attention to the individual people, like, you might trust that you have a manager that's doing everything great. But if you're kind of in tuned and attentive to maybe find that seems like they've, they're going through something and you don't have to probe it's not, you know, you don't have to be their counselor or anything like that. But if you're aware of that, you might step in and ask, you know, or maybe just check some of the metrics or offer the help offered, as you know, ask some questions that might indicate that maybe they're, you know, they've lost a bit of focus somewhere, they need a bit of a reminder, to do something that they maybe haven't been doing, because they've been a bit distracted. And I think that comes from listening. And really, yes, it's empathy, or it's a bit more of being a people person, really, you have to be a people person. That's, I think, from my information, you have to like people, you have to understand that people are going to be really different than they're going to take and, you know, be have their quirks. And you have to be okay with that, you can't expect everyone to think the same way act the same way. And that sounds really obvious. But if you're trying to get a team to move as one unit and be accountable, and reach their goals and their outcomes, you have to be okay with the fact that everyone's different. And you have to find their different ways of being motivated and appealing to the way they like to be managed. And you need to be a people person to be able to do that.

Adam Liette
Yeah, that was a hard lesson to learn for all of us, like, Oh, I got to deal with people. But my mentor told me this, and it changed my life. He said, I'm, the CEO is the visionary leader of the company, and the motivational leader of the company, you the operator, or the emotional leader of the company. And when you you have to show up in that way to support your team. And when you do that, they have that emotional support to move forward.

Nicole Baldinu
Yeah, that's a that's a really great way of putting it because it is more of the emotional side of things, isn't it? Like, you can get all brass tacks and you know, execute, execute, execute, this is the job you got to get done. But if you don't take into account emotions, and be okay, and be a person who's good with, you know, discussing emotions, feeling emotions, being aware of their emotions, then you're going to miss things like, you know, maybe why someone made a decision, the way they made the decision, why they dropped the ball, or what was really great about the decision they made, because you're kind of more aware of their emotional state. And, yeah, it's it takes a lot of energy, it takes a lot of time. But if it's your own company, and you're invested in your people, then you you'd be willing to do that. And I'm certainly willing to do that as much as I can to the best of my ability. I'm not perfect by any means. Always Learning. But um, but yeah, that's, that's, that's yeah, that was that was great the way that was phrased.

Adam Liette
Well, if anyone out there is new to having to lead in that way, I just recommend taking notes. It sounds weird to take notes on your team members. But it'd be amazed the little bit of you can build up a lot of trust in someone if you remember that their favorite band was Metallica, or that their dog's name is Wolf Wolf. Or what are their girlfriend's name is Cynthia, like, those are the human things and if it means you have to take notes, like just do it, like open up an Evernote folder and keep notes on people it's not creepy. It's no it's solely a matter of you having to take our very operational mind and having to like oh, okay, got it. Got it. Got to put this somewhere. So I remembered even just by typing it, you remember it better. So that's a little hack if you need to get into that. But definitely,

Nicole Baldinu
don't they in Google calendar so yeah, like that's, that's basic, but I agree what you said like, remembering all these details goes such a long way when you know, Hey, how's your daughter's you know, they double digits this year? Well, first double digit birthday. It does it means a lot

Adam Liette
that it always meant I would try to be the first person on the team on slack in the morning. So I could be the first person to say happy birthday. I have to do it before the gym or someone else is gonna come in and beat me.

Nicole Baldinu
Not competitive at all there atom.

Adam Liette
Operators are never competitive. It's not what we do. I have one last thing I'm like to discuss, and this has been phenomenal. I am, I was geeking out getting ready for this, and I knew I knew it wasn't gonna disappoint. I find if you go to like, I just got back from this huge marketing convention in Orlando, Florida. And like, all these entrepreneurs have these hero stories. And I was like, dang it, operators need our hero stories, like that moment where we just pulled the company out of the fire and like rescue yield, something was breaking apart, and we solved it. Can you think of any hero stories from your past that are like, that big, awesome Hollywood moment?

Nicole Baldinu
Wow, you're putting me on the spot here. Let's think I can't think of a specific example. But I can think of I suppose all the times when when, you know, it's, you know, software technology, things might go down, you know, this. technology might not be doing what it's supposed to be doing for whatever, an hour of the day. I feel that, you know, focusing on what we can control, focusing on the next five minutes, the next steps and being optimistic of like, what, what can we do next, let's focus on that. And know not being the person I think I've someone in someone at one, but I think I heard someone at a conference once mentioned, they were describing their team, and they were describing a personality of the person that points out that there's a fire, and, you know, all the all the drama around that fire and then just walks away, doesn't want to be solution focused and just like leaves everyone like, oh my god, there's this fire now that we have to deal with. And when someone so go, then they know what to be saying. And so I think, in general, what I try to do is to have that optimistic outlook, that focus on like, what do we know, what can we do in the next five minutes, 10 minutes Next day, to solve and to get out of the situation? And just to keep that kind of energy and that kind of vibe going. So that people so we're not just, you know, oh, what are we gonna do? And it's drama, and it's chaos. I think it's more of an attitude. I don't have a specific story that I can think I'm sure maybe there hopefully, there's been a moment. But I think it's just that general attitude and character of being optimistic and being focused on like, well, what can we do right now to, you know, to get out of this situation to solve this problem.

Adam Liette
So funny like that without having a specific story attached to it. Like the end lesson was the exact same as my hero story. Which is, okay, I've daughters, I've seen Frozen 3000 times. And one of the taglines in Frozen two is you just have to do the next right thing.

Nicole Baldinu
Wow, that's great.

Adam Liette
Like my hero story was when when the world shut down in March of 2020. And we're like, what are we doing? And every other company we knew friends up, they were just like going in, they're just going to do the turtle thing and put their head away. And we're like, Nope, that didn't happen. So it's one of those like days of just do the next right thing. Just do the next right thing. And we launched like six marketing campaigns in a single day, and revamped the company overnight. Why? Because it was a different world. And but yeah, just do the next right thing. Yep. Thank you.

Nicole Baldinu
That's great. That's great.

Adam Liette
Oh, fantastic. Thank you so much. Just one last fun thing to end on. And it's not a hard question. But if you do come up with a hero story, they want to share with a slice it in here. But I firmly believe that leaders are readers. And I can see you have lots of books in your background, too. I can't, I'm always reading at least three at a time, because I'm that kind of person. What kind of books are you currently reading? What books would you recommend any books you'd recommend? Not it doesn't have to be business books, fiction books are great as well.

Nicole Baldinu
Oh, gosh, I am one of those people that have a few books going on at once. So and I have my fiction book at night. So I've got a few Japanese one Japanese novel that I've got at night that I read before bed, but during the day in the morning, when I have my reading time, I will read a business book. So right now I've got the alter ego effect by Todd Herman. That's a great book. And I would say it's probably a good book for your listeners. In the sense Is that, especially if we're thinking about all the different roles that we play the different ways that we're expected to show up in different areas of our life, whether it's our family, whether it's our business, whether it's with it with our friends and other relationships, we're called to be and to have a way to show up as the best possible way we can show up in that situation. And so the alter ego effect is is great, is a great one. I'm only halfway through it. But it's very inspiring. I've also got Jenny Blake's free time, lose the busy work and love your business. That's a great book for a very underserved market in terms of, you know, businesses that are one two to five. You know, there's a lot of business books out there that you know, for the big teams and the big companies and big organizations, but for the small business owner, Jenny Blake's book, free time is really, really great to get some systems in place and making sure that all those you know, to have like, even if you've got a tiny team that you can have, you know your time back, and you know, your business is running really, really well. At the same time love books.

Adam Liette
Me too. Now I'm in trouble because I'm gonna go buy more books on Amazon tonight, Nicole? Because I don't have either of those two, and now I have to buy them.

Nicole Baldinu
Great. Oh, no, you love them. I'm sure.

Adam Liette
There's one recommendation I can make for fiction specifically. And so you're not in the marketing. I got that. But knowing a little bit of copywriting is really good. Okay, and the Jack Reacher novels. So there's mystery novels, if you can write the way he writes and those novels, as a professional copywriter actually told me this since I started reading them just to study the way that the prose is organized. If you write your copy like that, you will never be broke again.

Nicole Baldinu
So really, the Jack Reacher novels, okay, they mystery? Okay, yeah, they're

Adam Liette
mystery novels. He's like a military policeman and man, they make military policemen seem like superheroes in this book series. I was in the military. They're not that cool. Sorry, MP buddies. You're not Jack Reacher. You know you aren't though. But it's okay.

Nicole Baldinu
The boron letters.

Adam Liette
It's on my Christmas list.

Nicole Baldinu
That's finally maybe the only marketing movie. No, I've had might have read out the marketing books, but that one on copywriting. And it's also like just a it's a book with like, lots of life lessons too. Which is really, really nice. It's a father to son.

Yeah. Anyway, so my

Adam Liette
wishes, I reached the time of the year where I have to submit a wish list. And I'm prohibited from buying from that wish lists until January. And I noticed my marriage is much happier when I abide by this rule. So I submit my list and I'm not allowed buying it. So because it's on the list. So I don't have any January. I'm ordering it. We'll see. Fantastic. Oh, this has been so much fun to call. Do you have any final thoughts before we wrap up here today?

Nicole Baldinu
I know I had a great time. Adam, I hope this was helpful. It could geek out, like you said on operations all day and going chattels and systems and all the nitty gritty, but I think it's a, it's such an interesting role. And I really appreciate that you have a podcast dedicated to it, because I almost think it's one of those underserved kind of roles that can be very different depending on the organization, depending on the business size, the resources, the team size, all of that can really, you know, inform like, Okay, what is the best way to you know, be the integrator be that operations person for this company, it could be very different for another company. So, I think this You're doing a great service with this podcast.

Adam Liette
Thank you so much. I think you pretty much you had two great things that were as long as we're listening and we're doing the next right thing. Like that's really the key but it's about being aware of your situation. Being flexible and yes, we are under underserved listen to that CEOs listening to this show, you need to appreciate your operators some more. So it's gonna be part of my life's work is to make us an appreciated commodity.

Nicole Baldinu
Great mission.

Adam Liette
Awesome. Thank you so much, Nicole, I get we need to stay in touch and geek out on a more regular basis. And yeah, if you if you're interested in learning more about Nicole check out the on $100 MBA podcast and webinar ninja. Webinars are still very much a thing in this marketing and I think it's going to become even more of a thing. But that's a whole nother side of my brain that I'm not going to activate just now because we'll be here for a lot longer on how cool webinars can be, especially if you're selling high ticket. Okay, that's it. I won't go in a more marketing. But Awesome. Thanks so much for coming. Have a great rest of your day and anything I can do or anything you'd ever want to kick out in the future. Just shout.

Nicole Baldinu
Oh, likewise, thanks that I'm really glad we connected. I'm looking forward to staying in touch.